Just wanted to say HI! I really believe that encap will soon rule and probably hurt the hwe part of the industry. So be it.... The results speak for themselves.
Dan

best to have all the tools



TBhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1111964647.JPG

hiyas Dan, welcome

i dunno if it will "hurt" the HWE industry....i suppose the HWE distrib's and manu's a little bit, but competition is good. i'm not a distrib or manu so it doesn't mean anything to me....those folks will still makes their big money.

thanx --- Derek.

When the handwriting is even more clearly on the wall (i.e., when HWE equipment
sales start to decline appreciably) the HWE manufacturers will make a concerted
effort to come out with their own encap-types of equipment. Kind of like when
the Japanese car manufacturers became widely regarded as makers of the highest
quality vehicles, and began taking increasing larger slices of the US - and the
world - market, only then did Detroit see the light and begin building quality
into their products. The bigger manufacturers (eg., Tennant) might also BUY
their competitors, rather than compete head-to-head with them. No industry in
today's global market is immune to consolidation.

Hi Dan, that's a very interesting statement, but, in my honest opinion, I think that in certain situations, HWE will still remain 'the boss'.

I have been HWE for a long time, but I bought a VS-2 many years ago, and was not happy with the results.

Having said that, using this same upholstery machine with Releasit has given me brilliant results.

Two years ago, I bought an Aussie made 'Orbital' type machine, similar I believe, to John Geurkink's one.

On most carpet types it did a good job, but still not good enough. Again the Releasit has made a big difference again to the quality of the job.

But on very plush wools, it was hopeless, and would just bog down into the carpet. This particular carpet was a pain, due to the fact that it had been installed incorrectly, and would shrink with minimum water.

As it dried, it would regain it's former shape, but being in a V.I.P. lounge at an airport, this was not good enough.

Now I have a 'Big Yella', and it is kicking butt!!!

I just HAVE to get it back into the QANTAS departure lounge.

I think the Cimex will become the 'standard' for commercial work, in preference to HWE.

The better rotaries/orbitals/cylindrical type machines are going to compete head on with HWE for residential work and smaller jobs.

On upholstery, I will be comparing my VS; using Releasit.

I will also be trialling a hand held orbiter, using pads similar to the Fiber Plus Pads on upholstery, in conjunction with Releasit applied with a foam gun.

HWE, I think, will remain King for water damage restoration type work.

Look at C*** D**, and see which way they are going, look also at their standard of cleaning.

For those real crappy greasy restaurants, I can either give them the flick, or maybe get a Steamin Demon. Or leave them for the HWE blokes.

When I look at my vehicles and equipment I now have, everything seems to have grown into a headless problem.

Do I really need all this gear?? Time to re-size & get practical. Less is good. Less is simple.

Got a bit carried away once again, but there is still plenty of room for all, as long as we provide quality service.

K.I.S.S.

Cheers,

Shorty.

Not to Hurt for sure.

VLM will never over take HWE IMO>
Customers minds will be hard to change. For years they have come to expect Steam cleaning', nothing else. IT is a challenge to pad or bonnet clean without having to explain my ass off. LOL But they are buying clean, not a method and I agree to this theory.

Encap will NEVER rule the residential cleaning market if that is what you are referring to. Commercially speaking, it will takes its share of the market.

But to remember, with encap, scrub N Run style like the Cimex, there is no extraction. And many times, this is necessary. And almost always in the residential market.

The key is to have all the tools and diagnose the route that you feel is best to take.

OP, pad/bonnets/ encap, HWE<, they are all tools.

It is the man that pulls into a bizs' parking lot or a customers drive way, with all the tools, that better serves his customer.

I use them all and quite well I think.

I never limit myself to a method until I see the job.
But I almost always HWE my residential and I pad clean a few. About all of my jobs combine both methods.. esp the new industry buzzword (thanks Paytoilet) Post Dobbing. . Now we're talking real cleaning. LOL.
Never, hardly never, do I use encap as a stand alone method. YOu get the clean looking results. But when dry, take a wet towell, wipe and let me know what you see.
Residentials deserve extraction. People and kids and pets are in the floors.. laying and playing. This isnt the case when we speak of commercial work .

All methods have their time and place. One is a true PRO when he knows which tool to use to better serve that job and customer.
ANd it will be different than yesterdays jobs and the jobs on the books for tomorrow.

No two jobs are really the same. THat is what makes the industry a challenge.
No two jobs done right I mean. LOL

Happy Cleaning to all.


Dobs

Steve Dobson
ProFloor
Custom Cleaning Services

hiyas Steve

def better to have more options. that said, i know of some who Encap all their resi work, as i am currently doing...they are no less professionals than anyother CC'er out there.

just thought i would speak up for those of us who do

thanx --- Derek.

I'm just a 'old' rookie compared to the many members of this forum but in the past 2 months, 75% of all my residential customers (which is 90% of my business) mention their dissatisfaction with Sears or Stanley without any solicitation on my part. *pardon me if I shouldn't have said the names
They are anxious to tell me how wet the carpets were and how long they took to dry and how the stains came back when dried.

I charge a reasonable price, tell them that they will actually continue to 'clean' their carpets as they do their regular vacuuming and they are thrilled with the results. Haven't had one person express any negatives with this presentation. I've even tried calling back in two days to check on their satisfaction level (when I remember). 100% favorable with no complaints since I started using Encap whenever possible.

When I find a trashed carpet, I raise my price and use my rotovac with Punch and followup with my mew challenger OP. Great results
It wasn't too hard to beat the 'professional impression' left by the HWE's. Customers really don't care what is left if the carpet if it LOOKS CLEAN. They really have no reason to ask if you prepare them properly.

Steve... in response to..

"Never, hardly never, do I use encap as a stand alone method. YOu get the clean looking results. But when dry, take a wet towell, wipe and let me know what you see."

Ever do that on a dry hwe carpet? You will see all the dirt that came up and dried on the fiber tips. No wicking with encap. I also just read an interesting article in Cleanfax magazine. Basically saying that water and surfactants will remove soil down to 4 microns. Dry vacuming will remove soil down to less than ONE micron. I also think that hwe has it's place, ie... when dog vomit or other contaminants need to be removed from the carpet. But, when you consider that 75 to 80% of the dirt in the carpet is dry.... and we vacum it out before we clean.... all that is left is the pesky 20% on the fiber tips. So encap that 20% (release it from the fiber) and then clean it out with the most efficient method...vacumming.
The chemistry is in place and I for one embrace it.
Dan

Hi Dan, Derek and the rest of you guys.
Good points all.

First let me say, that I am a Releasit fan. I own a Cimex. I love encapsulation. I love Ricky G. and all he has done for the industry. I am far from a basher. Anyone that knows me or has talked to me knows this.

more thoughts.

Whats up Derek. NO, when one encaps, you arent less professional in the personal sense. But as far as cleaning, IMO a hugh injustice has been done.
There is no comparison to CC'ing done right as compared to a Cimex/encap , scrub N run method. Not even close.
Does it look good? Sure. But that dirt is in there. Forget prevac percentages of how much soil is removed. That is a classroom theory. Theory in the classroom and practicality are two totally, hugh different theories.

Ever go to college? Not Derek but anyone reading this. Sat in a Biz class. And wonder why the professor was teaching. Its because the majority of the time, he couldnt apply practical knowledge and make it in the real world. So he teaches us stuff that when we walk out of the bldg, is pretty much about 1/2 used. Its funny. That isnt always the rule, but I would bet the majority of the time. LOL

Hey Dennis. whats up buddy? you said the following.

"It wasn't too hard to beat the 'professional impression' left by the HWE's. Customers really don't care what is left if the carpet if it LOOKS CLEAN. They really have no reason to ask if you prepare them"

I agree. I have went on the record as saying that this is a blackeyed industry. It really is. I said that 8 0f 10 cleaners need a new line of work. I make that 95 of 100. Its true. Sad but true.
HWE cleaners havent a clue. But the few in that 100 who do understand cleaning, where and how it takes place.. they know the real deal.
But true, encap (even scrub N Run style) leaves the impression of clean,, but unfortunately, also leaves all the soils. Dont confuse yourself.
Drive on partner.

HEY DAN . How are you my friend? you said this:

"But, when you consider that 75 to 80% of the dirt in the carpet is dry.... and we vacum it out before we clean.... all that is left is the pesky 20% on the fiber tips. So encap that 20% (release it from the fiber) and then clean it out with the most efficient method...vacumming.
The chemistry is in place and I for one embrace it.

That is a theory. A good one. But in more times than not, you wont find any of that to be the case.
I love all encappers, but you rip the bag open and find encapped soils. The fibers were dirty. They look clean. They somehow stay clean. lol But when you look into the bag, dont see squat, where did it go. It is in there somewhere.
The aggressive, multiple method cleaner can get it. No encap, scrub n run stand alone method cleaner has a chance.


And I disagre with what custys really want. We have prepared their mind that carpets cant get cleaner. That HWE are the ruination of the planet. That all they want and need is good looking carpets.

I say Phooey..................
That is so bogus and untrue. They think this to solidify our own mindsets because rarely is there a cleaner that can truely get carpets clean. Seriously.
So they merely agree with our mindset when they DO want clean carpets. They want it not only to look clean, but to be rid of dust, mites, skin, soil, urine, etc. on and on and on. (smile)

They just dont have confidence that we can do it and hey, can you blame them.

What if you go in there with that cimex ready to encap. and they say that they have talked to me. i told them about a method to dual vac, use 45 gallons of soft water, dry in less than 90 minutes, a no wick guarantee, protected, HWE, 15 pads used,,.??

What do you say then.

I would say that they would laugh you off the job. No offense to you or anyone personally. This is a debate for learning. Nothing more.

What if you were the homeowner. you had two guys. one with a cimex and he is going to encap and says it will be dry in one hour and can do it.
But no dirt will be gone.

and then cleaner two comes in. Uses hot water, 15 pads, HWE, protects, carpets are guaranteed to be dry in less than two hours, no wicking guarantee, double vac, double padding process.

who do you hire. It is a no brainer.

It is a no brainer when we educate customers and can back it up.
But most cleaners havent a clue. They think they do because the merely do itlike all others and understand that to be the normal 'standard' which really is no standard at all.. well it is, rather though a 'substandard' LOL

Encap has its place. It isnt at all, ever, in the residential market.
If you have all the toys, you know this. If you truly understanding cleaning, this is ever more evident. But if you only own a cimex, you can snow the custy into believing it.
But watch out for the good cleaner that comes in and shows them what you have done and trumped' you 4 fold.
Now it is major damage repair to your company, personal integrity and knowledge about something that you thought were doing right, but found out you werent' at all.

And that time may never come. See my percentages above about terrible HWE/pad cleaners.
But if that 2% hits your customer, or she gets wind of one of them, HISTORY>


If better is possible, good enuf never is.

If a particular method isnt working, dont assume it to not be good, fix it and make it work. Challenge yourself to understand why it is and isnt' what it is.(did you get that..lol?)
And any cleaner that uses 3 methods, who is truly a craftsman of the trade, will ALWAYS outclean, outshine and outperform any one method cleaner (given personality, marketing, etc is the same).. and i say again.. Always.

take care all of you. This post isn't directed at anyone, any company, manufacturer or anything solely.
It is for learning, you and myself, and debating.

Its all good. Raise the bar. We all win.




Steve Dobson
ProFloor
Custom Cleaning Services

i understand what your saying Steve. but i stand by my Encap'ing resi ("scrub and run" as some call it). funny how HWE guys don't call their method squirt and suck...same exact thing as calling Encap "scrub and run" lol...just minimizes the process, noone says that to their clients.

but we all have our opinions, and no matter what any of us think, were all pro's making $$$ and obviously making happy clients...that's all that matters. for those of us who are scamming our clients, well we won't be in this biz for many years or months.

for those who are in a position to use HWE along with VLM, great for them. some like me can not for certain reasons, but will make due just the same.

when i can afford to buy an OP i will Encap resi with that. i may even extract some of the soil with cotton bonnets when i feel the need, instead of leaving it for the post-vac. that is still Encap'ing and will do an excellent job.

just want to say that i don't think those who are using Encap on their resi accounts should feel any less of a pro than those who can or do use HWE/multiple-methods, cause they certainly aren't in my opinion. but heck i'm just a noob lol.

i fully acknowledge that i'll never be the best CC'er in the world, heck even in the state. i know that in my mind...i wont put on airs or kid myself. i try and do a good job. can my clients find someone cheaper or better? sure. however i do think they will be hard pressed to find someone as honest and loyal. and that in my mind is worth more that the other. don't get me wrong, i will do a good job and if they aren't happy they don't pay. but more importantly they can trust me not to steal from them or cheat them in any way.

that's what i think most of us on these forums strive to do and that's all that matters. we all obviously want to do a great job for our clients otherwise we wouldn't spend so much time on these forums learning how to improve our businesses.

and thanx Rick for 1 of the most professional forums for us CC'ers

take care fellas --- Derek.

"Take a wet towel, wipe and let me know what you see." Steve D.
A few questions:
1. Did you do this test in a controlled way, using the same carpet but cleaned in different ways?
2. Isn't it true that there is no such thing as 100% clean carpets, no matter what method is used?
3. Did you allow for the effects of protectorant applied or not applied?
4. Doesn't your definition of encapsulation as "scrub and run" describe the same thing as "splash and dash" which is often used to describe those HWE cleaners who can clean an entire house in one hour? In other words, are you defining the method, or are you describing unprofessional cleaning methods?
These questions are not intended to be "gotcha" questions, but an effort to advance the discussion and learn what is true, so that we can be professionals in the best possible way.
So much of what we talk about in cleaning carpets is just personal experience. There's nothing wrong with that, but if that's all we have, what we end up with is just opinions.
I have a truckmount HWE, and a lot of other tools, such as the Cimex, rotovac, and GLS. So, I'm not pumping for one method. I'm all for finding the best way to clean carpet.
I think a lot of the claims for HWE for residential carpet are overblown.
That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

And by the way, Steve, I agree completely with your statement that if a person uses more than one method to clean carpets, he/she is going to outclean the person with just one method. That indeed, is a no-brainer. But I believe there is a place for residential encapsulation. I get the impression you think that is not true at all.