MY FLY TRAP MOUTH IS SHUT NOW, NO MORE MARBLE JOBS FOR ME FOR NOW.

Armed with more data and equipment, I set off to do my two jobs I had scheduled today. Luckily I was able reschedule one, for 2006 I hope. PLEASE, PLEASE , PLEASE SLAM ME FOR SOME OF MY STUPIDITY!!!!

Todays floor

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Countertop





The IDIOT getting ready to do something real stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!





I will add more on the next post.

Anyhow, prepped this job and got it ready. I went to Home Depot to buy a variable speed angle grinder as David G. suggested, of course they have not 1 single one. Therefore in my stupidity, I bought something that I thought would do the trick temporarily until I got the right one. Anyhow, they did not have a backing that would take the cimex pad so I bought something that is like a 10 grit sandpaper. Should I say more!!!!!!!!! The pad came off and gouged the marble countertop but its hard to see in the picture in two places.

Please, laugh your head off. I will someday too. I am only writing of my stupidity to save someone else who may be in the same boat as I. BBBBBBBBIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGG F-up and of course I don't have anything to take care of it right now..........

This floor was heavily scratched, I started with the 50 grit and moved to 800. This aspect once again turned out nicely in my opionion and I was pleased with it.

POWDER POLISHING

I am taking my 9mm with me next time to put me straight out of my misery. What is going on? Some of the floor looks great and 3/4's looks like serious crap. Trust me, I took my time, this was not rushed at all. I used the squegee but the problem with the squegee is that you honestly can't see how the floor is going to look until it is dry. I squegeed slurry all over. used to much water in someplaces and not enough in some places. GUYS?GALS, trust me, its gotta be easier than this or I am packing my bags...........
Do I need my partner to sit on the machine and push him around?

All I can say is that I did not have any raised veins in the marble like the floor on Sunday but I don't know if thats positive or not.

James AKA idiot

Some areas turned out good and others bad? One thing I did notice, the marble was uneven around the edges based on the clipity clop sound that the diamonds make. I can tell when they sound smooth or real ruff. On the rougher areas, I noticed the polishing was ok in the middle but around the grout lines it looked especially bad. I think DAvid you mentioned a picture frame effect which is what I got on about 5 or 6 of the tiles. Would I have to have ground them flush like the rest of the tiles?

James

James you've got me bewildered here. The fact that you have some excellent looking areas is evidence that the system is working. The fact that it isn't coming out even indicates that you're having some kind of problem maintaining consistency across the entire floor.

You said that you polished with too much water in some places and not enough in other places, so I'm guessing that you're still having trouble gauging how much powder to use. Use plenty of powder to begin with, enough to fill up the pad to some degree. And as you polish you want to use very little water, only enough to keep the paste in a light slurry, like thin mayonnaise.

I'll let Dave trouble shoot it with you, because he's the marble expert.




Rick Gelinas
encapman

You will get the hang of it but and this is a big but
if you are not carfully it may cost you some serious money
both in terms of clients and in possably having to replace a floor
or having a person who know the trade fix your booboo.

This is why proper training is needed to do specialty work.
There are a few ways to go about it.Buy several different kinds marble slabs and practice on them. or go to a class and learn.

Maurizio Bertoli
www.mbstone.com
This would be where I would head if I was going to get into marble floors.
you would also learn how to do concrete.


I am not trying to pick on you, it seems you have a good part of it down.
I hate to see anyone loose thier shirt

David

Rick,

It is not the equipment at all, IT IS THE USER AT THE END!!!!!!!!!LOL

I am going with another plan of attack as soon as I figure one out, which I know I will soon enough. Like David said, a few more of these and the $$$$$$$$ and my reputation are going to be down the toilet.

J

James,

I hear your frustration and I feel your pain my friend, been in similarly frustrating situations myself many times. And I hear your concern over upsetting your customer. I’d suggest telling them “this particular marble tile is presenting you with a challenge, and you’re going to need to spend some additional time to bring this stone to where you want it.”. Then go back and fix it for them.

Something is not adding up James. One of your comments above you said…
“I started with 500 grit to 800 and then polished.” That may be why there are some inconsistent results. It would also explain the rolled over “pillowed” edges.Ya gotta start at 50 grit - don't try to jump in at a higher grit. (Just like you can't lay that cafe racer down and walk away with no road rash - these are unalterable rules of the game)

I also want to suggest that you may be going too fast. My brother Dave has been on a small terrazzo job for 2 days (with a helper). And he’s still not done - just spoke to him – he’s HOPING to finish up today. I’m relatively sure that you’re not going through each step slowly and precisely. The fact that parts of the floor look great indicates that the process is working. The fact that it’s not consistent tells us that you’re not running the same way across the entire floor.

Looking at the edge in your bottom photo shows where the edge grinding was lacking - where the marble meets the carpet.

These are simply refinements in your technique that need to be made. You’ll need to take your sweet old time. Plan for it to take HOURS or more likely DAYS, and then add some padding to that. I know you can get this worked out. Your getting close, moving it into the realm of perfection is not that big of a problem from here.

Also take a look at the detailed explanations below. Hopefully it will come together for you.




Rick Gelinas
encapman

One little correction... David wrote: "carfully it may cost you some serious money both in terms of clients and in possably having to replace a floor or having a person who know the trade fix your booboo."

Actually, that’s the beautiful thing about marble. It’s just about impossible to damage a floor to the point where it would need to be replaced (more likely to get hit by lightning). There’s no way that you could inflict damage that couldn't be corrected. Keep in mind, you’re scratching microscopic scratch patterns onto the top of a fairly thick piece of stone. If you were to do something wrong and damage the surface, all you need to do is go back and grind some more. And there are no components in our system that can do irreparable damage to a floor. I put the products in this system together with deliberate thought to ease of use as well as safeness to the stone. It’s a basic system that doesn’t leave much room for error. And as mentioned, in the case of error – it can be fixed. So the risk of replacing a floor really isn’t a reasonable concern.




Rick Gelinas
encapman

At this point I’m going to run through the instructions and add some extra detail and reason for why the instructions are written in the manner that they are. This really shouldn’t be viewed as a recipe in the kitchen where you could substitute an ingredient or a step. This cake won’t turn out right if you do. Hopefully these extra instructions will give the added information you need to see the picture more clearly. Read it over carefully.

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Education:
There's no substitute for knowledge, and there are some excellent instructors that can provide extensive marble training. Attending a stone care class or two will be a good investment toward your future development in this field. Yet you may just be surprised to learn that it's really not that difficult. The steps below covers all the basics. These instructions will make it possible for you to understand the steps involved to restore and polish a marble, terrazzo or concrete floor. Hopefully this information may open the world of marble care to you.

We’re covering all the basics that you need to know to perform basic stone care successfully. But as also suggested, industry instruction will be helpful too.

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First Steps:
Dust mop the floor thoroughly. No sand at all can be present. If the floor has any floor finish/wax on it, you’ll need to completely strip the floor before you get underway. Diamond abrasives cut stone, they're not designed for polymer removal.

The reason for no sand is because it will scratch the floor.

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(Option 1) Lippage Removal / Concrete First Step:
(Option 2) Slight Lippage Removal / Deep Scratch Removal:

It’s important to recognize that if the floor has lippage, you’ve got to grind the floor flat first.

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Steps 1-4 Grinding/Honing:
1. Attach the Starburst resin-diamond disks to the Velcro drivers.
2. Make 5 slow passes with the Cimex. Keep the floor wet.
3. Overlap 50% moving to your next row and then make 5 more slow passes.
4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 across the entire floor.
5. Wet vacuum the slurry before it dries and rinse the floor.
6. Stay approximately inches from the walls with this grit.
7. Now do the edge grinding with the corresponding FlexDisk and Palm Sander.

Here’s the reason for step 2: Speed is not part of this game. Walk S L O W L Y. And keep sufficient water to keep the floor plenty wet. Here’s the reason for step 3: By doing the 50% overlap you cover everything evenly and actually perform 10 passes over the floor. Here’s the reason for step 5: If the slurry dries, it’s a bear to get up (sounds like you discovered that). And it’s also IMPERATIVE that you remove the diamond grit residue from the floor before moving on to the next grit. Here’s the reason for step 6: Progressively getting closer to the wall with each grit keeps you from gouging scratch patterns into the floor, so we stay away from the wall = 5 inches with 50 grit, 4 inches with 120, 3 inches with 220, 2 inches with 400, and all the way to the wall with 800. Here’s the reason for step 7: At each grit interval you’ll need to do the matching edge grinding. This will feather the edges perfectly.

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Edge Grinding / Honing:
1. Go to Home Depot or Lowes and get a DeWalt 5" Heavy-Duty Random Orbit Palm Sander for $69.
2. Use the thin resin-diamond FlexDisks for hand grinding. Attach each successive 5” FlexDisk directly to the bottom of the Palm Sander. The colors and grits of the FlexDisks match the Starburst disks and should be used in conjunction with the successive Cimex grinding steps.
3. Repeat the Grinding/Honing steps the same as shown above using the Palm Sander with each corresponding grit, moving progressively from 50-800. Keep the floor wet.
4. Recover the water and slurry before moving to the next grit.

The reason for step 3 is that at each grit interval you’ll need to do the matching edge grinding. This will feather the edges perfectly. And the reason for step 4: (like I said above)... If the slurry dries, it’s a bear to get up. And it’s also IMPERATIVE that you remove the diamond grit residue from the floor before moving on to the next grit.


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Powder Polishing:
1. Put standard beige FiberPlus pads onto the Cimex.
2. Spritz a 2’x3’ area of floor with a squirt bottle of water. Sprinkle about 1-2 tablespoons of 5X powder onto the floor like sprinkling parmesan cheese.
3. Go over the floor slowly. Work the slurry outward spreading it over a 3’x5’ area. Spend at least 20 minutes or more polishing each 3'x5' section. The machine may begin to bind up as it dries. So you'll need to keep spritzing more water onto the floor to maintain wetness until you achieve a killer shine. If you should have to stop the machine during polishing, lift the Cimex head off of the floor. Work backward to polish over the Cimex wheel marks.
4. Use a floor squeegee to transfer the slurry to the next section of the floor to be polished. Inspect the section you’ve just polished and if the desired shine has not occurred yet, repeat the process. After each section is finished, rinse it right away. Continue to use the 5X slurry on the next section of floor. Add more powder and water as needed to maintain coverage.
5. After you’re finished polishing, put some fresh FiberPlus pads onto the Cimex, and scrub over the floor drenching it with water (add clear ammonia at 1oz per 5 gal to offset the acidity of the powder). Wet vacuum and rinse the floor. You may need to rinse the floor a couple of times with clean water to remove all slurry.

The reason for step 2: Working a small area ensures that you can keep the slurry where you need it, enabling you to control the wetness and monitor the shine. Note: as you begin polishing you’ll use a little extra powder until the pad gets loaded up some The reason for step 3: Work S L O W L Y. Make plenty of passes. Spend at least 20 minutes or more polishing each 3'x5' section. Keep the wetness somewhere between a wet slurry and a light paste. The reason for lifting the Cimex head when you stop running it is that if they sat there for a while the acid in the powder could burn the floor. The reason for working backward is to cover your wheel marks as you polish. The reason for step 4: Using a squeegee recycles the powder slurry (saves money). It also helps you control your slurry so you don’t have such a mess to recover from the floor. The reason for rinsing it right away is because you want to recover the slurry residue still on the floor and it helps to lower the acid content to an acceptable level. The reason for step 5: The Cimex scrub & drench method will work the remaining residue loose from the floor and the light ammonia will help neutralize the acid. The final rinse process will recover remaining residue. P.S. If you have a Turbo tool – you could obviously use this to rinse the floor powerfully.

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Dry Polishing:
Put a set of clean, dry, FiberPlus pads onto the Cimex. Run over the floor one time to buff off any haze left behind after rinsing. You can spritz a little water as you dry buff if necessary.
The reason for the dry buff step is that you’ll invariably leave a little residue. Dry buffing removes the haze and leaves behind the shine.



….I thought that a more complete explanation of why we have all the steps will help you appreciate what you’ll need to do to get your floors to turn out perfect. The steps outlined will work. But you’ll have to follow them to the letter. We're gonna turn you into a marble expert yet





Rick Gelinas
encapman

Rick you are correct
Marble is a floor you cannot ruin to the point it cannot be fixed
and need replacing, my point was that you can mess them up a whole lot and
cost you $$$$$$$ to get it fix and cost clients.

I have only see two stone floors that had to be replaced and they were slate, or other then damadge caused by using Crystal Crappola


I have to agree it takes time and if you think you are moving to slow you need to move slower. This is not VCT, carpeting or even wood.]

Great instructions by the way Rick
The main reason I sugest taking a class is the hands on aspect of it, by the way the class should have lots of hands on.
you will get to see how it should be done the time it takes and technique as well as practicing on stones with out the fear of messing up.

If you live near anyone who is doing stone tag along for a day it will be well worth it

David

Excellent advice. The first floor I posted did not have scratches so I started with 500 grit first, thats why. The second floor in this thread was started out at 50 and worked on up. Like I said, the scratches were gone, it was the powder polishing that did not go well and after reading the part that states a 3x5 section may take 20 minutes, I may have spent 5 minutes or 7 at max for these areas. I think I will concentrate on spending more time. I just figured that the cimex was quicker versus the tradional 175rpm swing machine. I also noticed in this floor above that I only hit each diamond pad about 7-8 times before moving and over lapping as the directions suggest but the diamonds make a certain loud clipity clop noise when the floor is uneven and a different sound when its smoother. I changed the diamonds once I was done with the passes even though THERE WAS STILL THE LOUD CLIPITY CLOP IN CERTAIN AREAS signifying that there was still lippage. I assume that it is difficult to get a floor polished like one might like if there is lippage, giving the halo,picture frame or whatever you called it effect.

I have been thinking about this floor all day and all last night. I MAY BE A SLOWER LEARNER BUT THINK I MIGHT BE ON TO SOMETHING. What do you think? Are things starting to make more sense now?

Its not the machine, its the OPERATOR!!!!!!!!LOL

James

……You’re making me look bad, your ruining my percentages man. I have been able to teach a lot of guys; as a mater of fact, everyone that’s asked, how to do stone. You’re killing me here man.

Now that I got that out of the way; how’d your day go, any better? Give me a call if you want (Till 10:30 EST) , you got my cell. Ricks explanation of the directions up above is very well put. It should help to round out any fuzzy areas, either on the floor or between the ears.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

Too bad, too bad, I’m no longer at 100%. Well I might recover; James might get this thing figured out after all. (Let’s hope ‘cause he’s killing me.)

I booked a week as an aprentice with Al Spaet, the ground floor, in Los Angeles this morning for the end of this month. As I am going to drive my truck down there, I am going to take the Cimex with me and hopefully be able to use it. Al was kind enough to take me on for as long as I wanted, however its difficult to even take a week off so I will be armed and dangerous after the 4th of July, so watch out!!!!

James

ps. Rick, you can ask David if you don't know who Al is.

That sounds great James. Al's a Prince and he will really help you out A LOT!!!

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

I have the remaining job resheduled for next week. I told her before I started that I did not have the tool to get close to the edge and the 1 step she had so she did not skip a beat or question me. However, I better be able to perform next week because I have run out of excuses.

David,

From my avator, you know I like quick pieces of machinery, maybe your students don't have as much testosterone as I do or are speed junkies. I think I was just moving a little too quickly, and its apparent that "Speed Kills" LOL

James

Thanks for the call today, it is rewarding to know that so many care in this specialized field and are willing to help.

James "PAINFUL marble and stone restoration." <G>

yeah good talking to you to...i wish there were more people up at the hours i usally am so i could talk more.....i mean thats how most of us get a rough education, is by sharing what works and what dont, with people from aways away so they dont feel threatened..

It just takes a little time to get the hang of it; it's just like anything else. Stone is not that diffacult, it just takes a little time to figure it out and it looks like you're coming around that learning curve. I knew you'd get it. 'course you did have me a little scared for a bit. LOL

Hang in there, you're getting it.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

Looks like I'm heading back up towards 99.9%. Another week or two and I'll be back at 100% it looks like.

I screwed up the perfect 10 for you, LOL. I will get it, thanks to guys such as yourself and Doug sharing information, I have no exuse not to get it.

However, I am putting work on the back burner and going camping for 4 days in the desert with about 20 friends and our motorcycles. I have those priorities straight at least for fun where I don't mess around.

james





Gives me time to think about my marble career.LOL

James