Hi all,
I just wanted to share some recent instances of where two fairly long term commercial accounts were lost when the manager decided to "save money" and do the carpet cleaning in house. I check in regularly with both accounts and take the managers to lunch , drop by donuts and really try to do good work each month for these facilities. The one account is actually starting to use me again after two months of in house cleaning. This is the second cycle of this in 5 years , it seems I go through this sometimes when they get new managers. The manager told me the owner wanted them to clean it themselves, but they found they didn't have the time or equipment to do it . The other has dropped me altogether , so far , as of two months ago. I know I have read where some of you have experienced the same thing.
Craig

Same thing happened to me when a hotel I did lots of work for changed housekeeping managers and they bought it in house. Tried to win them back but ended up giving them away and getting other clients. It's a pain when it happens because its so sudden, as there are no formal contratcts in place, so it can leave you high and dry.

I learned from a previous business experiance to never have all my eggs in one basket, that way if one drops you, although iy's not a great feeling at least it doesn't kill your business.

Regards
George

the closet Encap'ers will poo-poo Encap and say this is a good reason why not to Encap.

but they'd be wrong in their assumption.

i've learned over the years that when a new office manager (or any "manager" who might head up the CC'ing) comes into play, always EXPECT to be let go of. then i'm not surprised when they want to "save a few bucks", and try in-house, or someone cheaper.

these new managers are always looking to impress their new bosses, and the cleaners (janitorial as well) are often the 1st to go.

as you mentioned Craig, they many times will call you back and desire your services again, after they learn that in-house doesn't cut it...paying someone $9 an hour to clean carpet (which is back breaking work to a noob who doesn't know proper technique) doesn't last long...most of the time. let alone the fact that they will have many wick-back issues because of the garbage walk-behind portable they purchase.

just part of doing business.

thanx --- Derek.

I agree with the observation regarding the cyclical nature of this phenomenon. However, as one who works "both sides of the street" for almost 2 decades now it is problematic.
I've been involved in the use of CRB equipment since 1990, started out dry compound from the "in house" thing while I also had my own thing going in the evenings. Being a naturally inquisitive sort and most of us are, I researched/kept up with new things coming down the road and experimented. The internet is such a wonderful source of information, knowledge, and the Europeans also seems to be pretty sharp with Rotowash, Cimex, and Karcher, just to mention a few. Must be something about the age/surfaces/environmental things they have to address. Also, for years one of the basic tenants for carpet product evaluation has been about puttin the product into end use dilution spraying into a clear container, allowing it to evaporate and dry. Then if the residue is sticy then that is bad, if it is a dry "crystal" that can be vacuumed off that is good. Anyway, I digress.
Basically, we have to be careful. As an in house manager I can request to know what you use in my acct., MSDS, etc. Just to protect myself and my tenants, Then I watch what you are doing, "evaluating" your performance. Just want to see I'm getting my moneys worth. What works good for you will work good for me, I do a couple hours of research on the net or have my procurement person handle it while I'm calling to see who has the best rates at the local temp labor places, see which supplier will provide the most/best training materials, service and bingo!
Now with message boards providing even more helpful insights, the cat is out of the bag. The magician has shown the audience the trick. Our only hope it the cycle is short and we can last it out. Have a diverse portfolio, build good relationships, make the sales call/demo an experience that not only allow you to show your stuff but allow you to "read" the client as well. Do they really seems to be worthy of your efforts as well. Sorry I rambles so much, things are kind of slow.

Over the past year I lost two Holiday Inns because they switched management, and the carpets in both places are horrible. I get the "we are looking into replacing them soon" reason each time. I try to explain that they dont need to be replaced, just cleaned routinely, like any other textile. Also, the price to replace 10k of carpet is way higher than cleaning it, which you will have to do anyways once the new carpet gets dirty again. ARGH! they just dont care!

Also, I was doin work for a local housing complex, wich has a few big buildings with nasty hallway carpets. The head guy loved the results and asked alot of questions, like how much the Cimex cost (i told him 5k) what the chems were etc. I think he new i was reluctant to give up the info, so after the last job i did he told me how easy it looked to clean, and that his brother down south was interested in doing some cleaning. I sheepishly told him to just check out the internet, which hopefully he doesnt.

What I did was send him a letter with the final bill and casually mentioned what he said about his brother being interested. I then said that while the process i use is great, it requires alot more knowledge than just what he saw me do. I told him I had to use 4 different chems for all sorts of spots n stains throughout the building and that i am certified by IICRC to handle all sorts of carpet cleaning situations. We'll see if I get repeat work!

I took the labels off the cimex and also put something over the big "Cimex" on the supply tank...I'm also gonna put the DS into unlabeled containers. I've already had one custy, without ANY shame, pick up a bottle that I left in the hallway and write down the excellent-supply website right in front of me. Of course, he never called me back; maybe I should stop by sometime and see if he bought a Cimex!

No more of that.

They ain't gonna no NOTHIN about my system from now one...

Let's explore the question... What is the problem?

The problem is, changing managers.
They change, hence the decision for maintenance changes with them.

In my experience, I've found a technique that has worked when I've applied it.
And I have to add those last 4 words "when I've applied it", because in all honesty I haven't always applied what I'm about to share.
Why haven't I always applied this? Poor implementation. But that's a discussion for another thread.


If the moron manager wants to explore in-house, follow him down that path. I mean, after all he or she is the new player who wants to impress everyone in the facility that they're bright, brilliant, gonna improve the world, etc. Oh my, who are they trying to fool? But we need to understand where they're coming from first.

Now that we understand their mindset, address that..
Joe, it looks like you have some progressive ideas for this place.
I am happy to hear that. Because this really is a GREAT place.
In fact, our company has been adding value to this place for the last ___ years.

You are proposing going in house with your maintenance. I've been in business for ___ years. And I've seen this happen before.
If after looking at the complete picture, you feel this is the best fiscal decision for this property, then I agree, that's the best path for you to take. So let's take a look at that path.

How much does it cost to employ a person to clean carpets?
How much does it cost to provide their benefits?
Pay their taxes, worker's comp, etc?
How much of a liability are they opening up to you (i.e. possibly harming the facility or person's in the building)?
How much does it cost to buy equipment?
How much will it cost for you to maintain and store that equipment?
How much does it cost to buy and store chemicals, with their corresponding MSDS sheets?
Joe, you're the expert in management of your facility, so I know you have access to all those numbers.

Now let's look at what I'm prepared to give you.
For $___, we take all that off your plate.
We own all that crap I just mentioned above.
We own all the headaches.
And you get to enjoy clean carpets every day.
And if there's EVER a problem, you just pick up the phone and call me personally and I will jump on it immediately.

This place has been enjoying excellent service from us for ___ years.
We've enjoyed a great relationship working together.
Joe, I think if you'll honestly evaluate everything we've just discussed together, you'll see that our service is a very good option.
And it will leave you free to use your energies in other places.



Craig I hope this gives you some ideas to work with








Rick Gelinas
encapman

Thanks Rick,
I appreciate your reminders, I know we have discussed this before, but thats one of the values of this board and the people who share here.Kind of like this being the third or fourth time we have gone over "Revelations" as I tend to quickly forget.
Craig

That all sounds good Rick if you even get the chance to meet with the building mgr.

Years ago when I had a janitorial biz, I lost a large acct that went in house.
I gave them a good price for five years, then one day the office mgr up's and quits because he saw the writing on the wall, this co was loosing $ and they were looking for any way to save.

I get a call one day asking me to write down all that I do there, they told me not to worry its just so they know that if I was to miss a day they would know what to do. So I made the list and added a few things extras and started to worry, sure enough they went in house about a month after that.

They went with using one of there low paid run for the boarder workers (if you know what I mean) and he is still there (so I am told) doing what I did and I bet he is making the same amount as he did back in 1990.

The problem is bottom line, why pay XYZ Co for carpet cleaning when the new mgr comes on and says I can save this co thousands a year by going in house, Hell we already have so and so who does the trash and mops the floor once a week and we pay him next to nothing, so lets buy an extractor from the supply store and we get Paco to clean the carpets once a month in between him doing every thing else. Bottom line this mgr saves the co 3500 or more this year and he/she looks really good doing it. Now next year might be a new story, the carpets look like crap and this guy who was going to save this co thousands is gone to screw up another co. Paco get the blame for not cleaning the carpets and maybe gets the door.

In the mean time: Joe, Anthoney and Derek have lost a major acct for over a year now and are trying to make up for it and have to cut back on things all for some snot nose college kid or some bodys gradnson that does not know what the hell is going on and dont know crap about carpet care.

It has nothing to do with the system or anything like that, its all about looking good and the bottom line, we get this crap at the school system, our new mgr wants to look good for the BOE so last year he returned 100,000 of our dept budget, we the workers dont have bleech, cleaning rags, new vacs or any new equiptment, we buy most of our own items but hey, the big shot mgr just got a pay boost from 75,000 to 90,000 a few weeks back.

Its all about looking good and $.

Sorry for the rant.

As some of you know, I used to let the carpet cleaning contracts for a 20,000,000.00 a year Corporation in the Southeast. I was always looking for someone who ran a operation like Rick's Kleen Step for commercial cleaning. The main reason we went in-house was because of below average service, or if there was a spill or small flood on the carpet , it was hard to get a quick response. Or we were disappointed in the overall look of the facility. For me, managing 22 million sq. ft. of space in many different locations, it would always be easier to pick up the phone and call the contractor and be assured it would be taken care of in a timely manner.

Actually this thread is kind of funny, considering it is next to the thread regarding how much made per hour. How many hours of usage before the in-house has the equipment paid for. Also, encap is pretty much a nice option for in house programs. Less training hassles, chemicals simpler, with CRB or Cimex it is a more physically "friendly" option, fast turnaround times. Why not bring this process in-house rather than pay unnecessary additional costs.

In my limited experience , most of my losses to " In house " cleaners , they tend to use portable steam extractors , leaving soaked and sticky carpeting. As I said thats MY experience, others might be losing to encapers with Cimexes, I just haven't seen it.
Craig

.

the sky isn't falling. we won't go out of biz because of "in-house" CC'ers fellas.

a little caution doesnt hurt tho : like not letting them see what cleaning solutions and names of equipment you use.

thanx --- Derek.

WOW!! My "day job" at the church just got new TM-Pro today. Seems to be a nice improvement from the GLS we used. Definitely better than the self-contained extractor. Really do appreciate this resource of valuable information, to help with procurement.
The more efficiently/effectively we can do our jobs the better chance we have of not being out-sourced. There is room for everybody to have their piece of the pie. Only problem is the not for profits, governmental entities, etc. that don't pay sales tax, property tax, unemployment taxes and some that don't contribute to employee healthcare, retirement, etc. Like at my "day job" the cost shifting throws the whole competitive thing out of whack, kind of makes me wonder how the parishners would like being treated the same way. Oh well at least we scored an easy carpet cleaning machine out of the skinflints.

Moron managers? Come on Rick. The main reason for the switch is due to poor service be it in-house or contracting or money.

I have managed an in-house carpet cleaning for major school district were we cleaned millions of sq ft of carpet and tile, with Truck Mounts 405 performers, and took care of floods for pennies a sq ft and myself and the crew made good money and had the best pension system in the united states. They went contracting because of money and have now lost in court from union lawsuit and have went back to in-house

I am on both sides of the fence, own business and manage a crew at a private University. If you think that what you are doing is that hard then you are very wrong. In-house will always be cheaper then you and in a lot of cases it will be as good if not better.

If it isn't better then you then the manager isn't worth a crap. You should be happy that they call you back. A manager is there to analize his budget and make recommendations. If the contract cleaner was charging me $100,000 for cleaning and only works in the facility for a couple months total for the year, it isn't that hard to figure out that that is a couple of employees(with benefits) and still some cost savings and they are there every day.

You can figure that out or are you moron carpet cleaners. You will find that in most cases that average work is acceptable as long as it is saving money and the operation is going smooth

Rick,
If this moron manager called you then I assume you would tell him how easy the system is to use and you would do your best to sell it to him. Or would you call him a moron and tell him to call a contractor who uses the system?

True or not true?

Steve Frasier
Drew and Steve's Floor Care
www.drewandsteve.net

Steve,
Pretty well said. It's kind of hard not to take things "personal" sometimes. It would be curious to see demographic data of posters as far as full-time, part-time, VLM exclusive, HWE/VLM combo, OP, CRB, Mex, users etc. Also, those that are part-time if they have other employment is it in cleaning field(mgr., sales, or technician), etc. Another interesting point that was skirted but not wholly discussed was about carpet replacement. In situations I've been involved in as a mgr. I have to decide where to allocate my resources. Part of which is being included in the capital improvements budget issues, etc. While capital improvements might not be MY budget(custodial), if I know that bldg. mgmt. is going to turnover and replace carpet every 5, 10 or whatever arbitray number and that is a capital improvement item I'll know where to concentrate my resources. Just because a textile can be cleaned and made to look good doesn't always mean it should stay there. Aesthitically it might be displeasing, politically it might not work there are a number of reasons, the same old stuff needs to change. From the in house perspective those communications and being party to planning might be a bit easier, than discussing with a contract provider of services. Another question I personally have found intersting is conflict of interest. If one works both sides how much(intellectual, professional experience, magic mojo, etc.) does one divulge? Personally I think putting things in unmarked containers, etc. is a bit questionable. In these time of multiple chemical sensitivity disorders, IAQ, etc. Why would a mgr. not know and have documentation on what is being used just for "protection". So it seems pretty easy to have all the chem's, eqmt. etc. Also, the vendor should be trying to give all the info/service so they can keep your biz. But again, if you yourself are doing the work outside, how much of your "expertise do you share. In my case I generally make far better money per hour doing my outside work, but the benefit pkg. isn't there. However, I also don't wholly comfortable in sharing what I know with my "day job" for what the compensation is. It is kind of a negotiation with myself, as far as what makes my life(work) easiest, and not clueing my spvsrs., coworkers in. Kind of a melding of employee/private consultant, for so many dollars they have access to this fraction of my "resources" and as the compensation goes up so does the exchange of info, etc. How do you make it work?
Happy New Year