in order to get a contract with 11 Banks. Most are two stories with 1800 square feet of carpet. But they also have 422 sq. ft, of marble comming into the bank and almost up to the tellers. They also have VCT in the break room and bathrooms (no problem) I am not interested in the marble and they are not interested in dealing with two contractors. They have been dealing with my son for several years on blinds and shutters and like the local family business we run. They just want the marble to look clean and have some shine to it. Has anyone used Rick's gel polish on marble and how is the slip resistance?

Ray,

Gel Polish is a LIGHT treatment for polishing marble. To care for deeper scratches which normally occur, you will need to use diamonds and then powder polish. It's a major process and it commands serious dollars! If you want to do lightweight maintenance only, you might consider crystallization (however the TRUE marble dudes like my bro will tell ya that crystallization will wreck a marble floor, and that it's a manifestation of the devil... yada yada yada). I say crystallization is a practical approach for all those yokels who don't know the first thing about their marble floors and who don't have a fraction of the budget that is required to care for it properly - like the type of account you're describing (they're not gonna pay the BIG bucks to care for their floors). BTW we don't currently sell crystallizing marble products, but these products are available elsewhere and I think it would represent the most practical approach to caring for your customer's floors. So there you have it - my .02 - for what it's worth.





Rick Gelinas
encapman

Rick, I called you about 1;00 today and left a voice mail, so ignore it when you get it. Thanks for the info, and what would you recommend under the Cimex to apply the crystallization product? You are right on target about mentality of a good hard floor maintenance program.

i dont believe you can use the cimex for crystalization...to slow or the 3 pad thing...i think it has to be a swing machine..and big'ole steel wool....ncl has some good products i have heard

Doug is correct. You'll need a standard rotary machine and a thick steel wool pad for crystallizing.




Rick Gelinas
encapman

Got it, thanks.

Isn't crystalizing bad for the stone (Orange Peel over time)? Perhaps a polishing powder would be better. Just a thought. I think Al Spaet(?) & Larry Cobb both sell them... I really don't do marble yet but have been doing some investigating...

Jeremy,

We sell every diamond imaginable (far more than we list on the website) and we sell powder polish too.
Our diamonds and our powder are excellent, the best that I am aware of from any source.
And we try to be as competitive with the pricing as possible - VERY REASONABLE.

We don't sell crystallizing marble products at this time.
Crystallizing will not cause orange peeling. However it may possibly harden the surface of the marble to the point that fracturing might occur.





Rick Gelinas
encapman

Let’s talk about this:
Rick is correct on at least two points; crystallization is a cheap way of servicing marble and crystallization IS a manifestation of the devil.

Let’s reason on this for a minute (or two): Marble has in it calcium, when you buff “into” the marble the crystallization chemical with the steel wool you chemically change the top layer of the stone. You change the calcium into calcium carbonate. On the surface (no pun intended) that would seem like a good thing because the calcium carbonate is very hard. Heck that makes all the sense in the world, if we can make the top of the stone were everybody walks that much harder we’re doing the stone a favor and it will wear much better; right? Well, that is absolutely correct, it does make it harder. The problem comes in with the fact that you end up making the surface so hard that moisture can not pass through the stone. Over the course of a day that moisture has got to be able to get through, and it will go through I promise you that (Think Grand Canyon here guys, there is comparatively very little water when you consider the amount of erosion that has occurred). If you have crystallized the stone, as that moisture accumulates under the surface it builds up what is called hydrostatic pressure. Once it builds up enough pressure it will cause the stone to sort of erupt. It will also cause the white veining in the stone to swell and rise up out of the stone. As an example there is a large hotel in Orlando that has Negro Marquina / black marble in their main foyer and in their two elevator lobbies. This stone has been crystallized for some time and it now needs to be completely torn out and replaced. There are holes as big as your thumb in several places and holes the size of your little finger throughout.

Today I was making some repairs on some brown-antigue granite in a building that is only 4 ½ years old. This is a very high end condo in downtown Tampa. In the lobby the floor is travertine, Crema Marfil and Rojo Alicante. The rojo is already developing holes in it from being crystallized, it’s serviced monthly. Yes friends, it is true; crystallization can and will cause irreparable damage to a marble floor. (Oh and by the way, what do you think I sold against when I just happened to stop by the managers office today?)

Now, what about “orange peeling” a floor from crystallizing it? Yes that can also happen, but it’s not so much caused from the actual crystallizing of the floor, it’s more from operator error. What happens is you end up burning the floor, this can also happen with the improper use of polishing powders as well. When it does occur its not the end of the world; you simply fix it. Resurface that area and bring it back up to a shine. See guys that’s the cool part of stone, if something goes wrong just fix it.

Let’s look at Ray’s original question now: “How can he keep a shine on that 422 sq. ft. of marble?” In a perfect world you’d flatten the floor with diamonds and bring it up to a polish and at the end you’d powder polish it. To maintain it you’d simply powder polish it every two to four weeks. After a year or so you resurface the traffic areas and blend it all back in together. Okay so that would be the right way to do it, but unfortunately this bank doesn’t want to do it the right way, what do you do? Here’s an option; powder polish the crap out of it and it will get a good shine. Then every two to four weeks powder polish the crap out of it again and it will continue to give some measure of reflectivity for a very long time. Will it be right? No. Will it look good? No, it will look all scratched up and shiny. Will it look any better if you crystallized it? No, if you crystallized it, it would still look all scratched up and shiny it would also have the other problems that we discussed up top. Here’s a question for you, if you clean my commercial carpet every five years, will it look good? What do you do if your customer only wants you to clean their carpet every five years? You educate them to the best of your ability why that’s not a good idea. Then you decide if you want to deal with everything that is going to go along with that job. Stones the same way – educate them a little and it will go a long way.

The end result is still the same – properly done powder polishing will yield the same visual results as crystallization – it just won’t do the same type of damage.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

P.S. And yes, Rick has a very good powder polish for sale. It is the same one I use and we have very good results with it – I strongly recommend it.

I told you y'all Dave would come along and say that now didn't I?


BTW, a very thorough explanation there Dave - thanks for the good info!


Hey Dave, did you ever check back with that old million dollar+ home out on Park Street with the green marble floors that you successfully crystallized a dozen years ago or so? LOL








Rick Gelinas
encapman

Dave, what a good reply - and guys, please do read what he says because IMO crystallisation is to marble floors what ChemDry is to carpets: both are surface, 'appaearance' methods only - that promise a lot but deliver little...

The only point I'd like to clarify is that marble IS already a form of calcium carbonate and is really a mixture of several calcium and other metal salts most of which are (relatively speaking in stone terms) 'soft'. When you think of some forms of geological calcium carbonate, you think of the White Cliffs of Dover on the English Channel or indeed the Grand Canyon - or closer to most of our homes: blackboard chalk. What you see in nature (the erosion due to acid rain) is what we normally run into in marble and marble crystallisation.

And crystallisation is just that: the process of adding a relatively reactive strong acid to the surface of the marble (say it's just calcium carbonate), creating a reaction to form another complex calcium salt (I believe it's a silicate) which itself is harder than the original calcium carbonate surface of the marble. And that surface does exactly what Dave describes. It is a new crystal surface, harder (and that's the reason to crystallise in the first place) and crystalline, and therefore, polishable* surface. Unfortunately it is not permeable and does not allow for the same vapour transmission. So it looks OK for a while but then time catches up with it.

Short term gain for long term pain....etc.

Again, nice piece Dave!


* I say "polishable" but admit to not having all the facts on this. I am still not sure if the new crystallized layer that is created after the crystallisation process can be polished again later. I think it is...but once the damage is done chemically, I tend to think it is shot.

I thought you just had grinding diamonds.

Charles
Very nice reply, you seem to have a very good grasp on a part of stone that is not my strong suit. What I understand about stone and stone restoration is the mechanical side of it all; an area that I am lacking in is the technical side from a geological stand point. How much of this mineral or that mineral is in a given stone or where this stone may come from or what the name of one of the thousands of different stones there are is. (It’ll make your head swim.) To a degree I would like to be able to remember more of that kind of stuff but at the same time some of it at times seems a little redundant. The long and the short of it most of the time is; is there calcium in a given stone or not (If there is a question about it you can always do an acid test)? If there is calcium present, marble or “marble like”, than you treat it as such. If not, than you treat it like “granite”.

For the benefit of others reading this post that are just learning about stone, for the “most part” there are two types of stone; marble or granite. Marble has calcium in it and granite doesn’t. Most of the time marble has veining and granite doesn’t. There is a funny little stone that falls in between those two very broad descriptions and its called serpentine (green marble). Serpentine (and there are I think six types) is most like marble but it doesn’t have the same level of calcium so you treat it a little more like granite than marble. Yes there are a few other variables but for the most part that pretty much sums it up.

If you are the type that can retain lots and lots of technical things than by all means read up on stone and learn all of the little nuances about it. The more I learn the more I find it exciting. But at the same time just because you might feel a little inundated by all of the different types of stone out there don’t let that scare you – it’s just a rock.

Charles thanks again for your post, it was well put. I think I’m going to refer all of the geological questions to you in the future you seem to know your stuff. Take care.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

Looking back over your post Charles I think you had a question about re-polishing the stone once it has been crystallized. My understanding is if you only did it once could you powder polish, maybe. Could you go back and forth alternating between crystallizing and powder polishing, maybe but I wouldn’t want to. If you have crystallized the stone much at all than my understanding is that you will need to re-cut the surface with diamonds and expose new unaffected stone.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

there is also another solution
Go tp MB Stone put his sealer on the marble.
You can then buff the floor once a month or what every your frequency is and the floor will look nice and shiny

Unfortunately that is not going to work David because the stone will scratch with normal wear. Sealer only protects the floor from penetration from staining. Sealer prevents foreign matter from penetrating the stone. Sealer has no affect on wear caused from scratching. Normal foot traffic causes wear to occur, there's no way around that. Sealer can not protect stone from wear. If someone is telling you that you only need to buff a floor that's been sealed, they're either giving you misinformation, or perhaps you misunderstood what they were saying.





Rick Gelinas
encapman

Just because the vast majority of the the commercial waxes we're used to in this country are indeed NOT the right product to maintain high-traffic polished stone floor, it doesn't mean for a split second that the principle of coating a floor is bad.
As a matter of fact, no matter how you slice it, it is the ONLY effective MAINTENANCE the you can think of and that makes any sense.
Now the problem is different: it is not waxing vs. non-waxing, but, plain and simple, finding the right product to wax the floor with.
At the House of Senate in Washington DC (and that is only one. And BTW, the Pentagon is about to follow, with some 2.3 million square feet of terrazzo floors) they've been testing a "right product" for over a year before adopting it. They never had to strip it once.
Time and cost?
I dont want to go into numbers but take this and then do the math yourself:
700 square feet, half terrazzo and half Tennesse Pink marble.
Half of them maintained with the "right wax" and the other half maintained with diamond pads alone.
Traffic conditions? Alomost extreme! It's a narrow corridor connecting the 2 busiest buildings of the 3-building structure of the House of Senate.
"waxed" area: twice a week one custodial guy, with one 1500 RPM burnisher and the proper spray-buffing solution: no more than 15 minutes per visit = 3 man-hour per month of low-paid custodial personnel. Cost of the product used? Maybe $10.00.
Again, let me repeat this real slow: never stripped it once. (And now that's there for almost 2 years, ti still doesn;t need to be stripped.)
Bare section.
After 2 months: a crew of two highly-qualified stone care professional with a $5.000 grinding/honing machine, diamond pads, wet and dry vacuum cleaner, masking material, etc.
total time, including cleaning up and all that: 12 man-hours of personnel that's paid almost twice as much as the one guy who goes there to spray-buff. Devide that by 2 and you have 6 (expensive) manhours a month (opposed to 2 or 3 cheap ones), plus approximately $70 of material (wear of the diamond pads, masking material, etc.) To top it all, by the time it is necessary to go there and re-grind that section of the floor, it's got to look like doo-doo. The "waxed" section is splendid all along.
All this without considering that on top of the wear generated by foot traffic on the bare stone, you take off at least 1/32" of stone every time you "maintain" it by grinding it.
This is not a paper, Tom: these are hard facts and are easily verifiable.
Well, I must admit it: I am definitely NOT a "true stone guy".
Ciao and good luck,
Maurizio Bertoli

PS: The above does not apply to slate floors. But then again, if you ask me, slate does not belong on a floor. Never did, never will.

<a href="http://www.mbstone.com</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mbstone.com</a>;


By the way WE have been caring for a few marble Floors for a while now with a sealer does it get scratchs in the Sealer yes it does, small ones can be repaired by burnishing, deep ones you need to scrub and reapply the sealer.

Since we have done this the marble has never been scratch but once from some fool dragging a heavy piece or furniture. We were not using MB product with these floors next go round we will be switching

Are you saying that Maurizio Bertoli is advising to "WAX" a natural stone floor?

This is a joke right?





Rick Gelinas
encapman

David H

If that product is currently working for you than I am very happy for you and my recommendation would be for you to continue to use it. Since 1984 I have done literally millions of square feet of flooring and if there is anything that I can say I know at least as well as anyone else on the face of the Earth is – floor “wax”.

I am sorry I don’t have time today to go into all of the reasons why it is such a bad idea to “wax” a stone floor; but let’s look at just one of them and only a small portion of that reason.

“WAX”, now I know that Maurizio’s product is not wax for a multitude of reasons; most importantly because wax is too soft to be put on a floor today. What it is I am sure is floor finish. Now is this just semantics or is there a difference? Yes on both accounts; it is semantics and there is a difference. (I say semantics because most often today people will refer to floor finish as floor wax) But guess what --- it doesn’t matter because in the end the result is still the same. Wax and floor finish are both softer than stone. Both of those products w i l l get soil embedded in them, that dear sir is a fact. But let’s just say for a second that, that it is not the case. What about when you go to do your scrub and recoat, it makes no difference how good you might be, it is not humanly possible to get every spec of dirt off of that floor. That translates in to discoloration. Which in turns means stripping – using harsh chemicals – bad for you, bad for your equipment, bad for the surrounding surfaces, i.e. painted and stained trim, carpet, etc, and bad for the environment.

Now lets take it one step further; what is the most expensive floor in the world to install? You guessed it right, terrazzo. What is the most inexpensive floor in the world to install? Yes you are right again, VCT. One more series of questions now: What is the least expensive floor in the world to maintain? Ding, ding, ding; you got it again; terrazzo. What is the most expensive floor in the world to maintain by far --- VCT. Okay, last question - - - WHY, Why in the world would anyone want to maintain a stone floor like VCT??? (Crap, I think I broke my keyboard. Darn it.) And for the last point on this, why would the worlds largest retailer Wal-Mart, go from having VCT floors to having polished concrete floors (Essentially polished stone floors)?

But like I said up top, if this system is working for you; go for it.

David Gelinas
Marbleguy

Thanks David

I have a ton of Terazzo floors that the people want waxed and buffed on a weekly basis and stripped once a year. I am trying to get them to polish them instead of waxing them. How long do you think a polished floors lasts compared to a waxed floor. About 1200 to 1500 trips in and out of the building daily

I am soon going to have 40,000 sq ft of polished and stained concrete to maintain so I need to talk to you about the right equipment to buy and how to maintain the it over a weekly, monthly, yearly basis

I did do a marble floor a few weeks ago, it was not in to bad of shape. Just polished it with StoneTech polishing powder(aluminum oxide), a heavy duty rotary and a hog hair pad. It looked ok, wet look but not quite a mirror look. Customer didn't want to pay for honing and polishing which would have made it look better. The biggest thing is that it is just a slow process

I have talked to some companies that are developing some new products. The call them waxes but I think that they are more of a one coat epoxy. There intended use was for like emergency and operating rooms where there is VCT but there is never enough time to spend to maintain them using the old strip, wax, buff process. Sounds very much like what David is talking about.

We also cleaned a ceramic tile bathroom with one if their new products. What we basically did was clean and polish ceramic tile and grout. This product cleaned out the grout lines very well and the ceramic not has a polished look to it, similar to a baked on shiny look. The polished look has now help up to daily disenfectant mopping(micro fiber) and the polished look is still there with no penetrating sealer

Steve Frasier
Drew and Steve's Floor Care
www.drewandsteve.net