we've all seen posts where others do something like this. they feel it is necessary in their case to give their accounts a "HWE Flush" every 2 or 4 or 10 cleanings. while i don't have HWE capabilites at this time, i wonder how necessary it really is?

i do have close friends with TM's that could do this for me if i felt it was needed, but fortunately i don't feel that way.

i've posted before that jobs take me quite a bit longer than most other Encap'ers. i wonder that maybe i am doing a little more detailed work and in so doing, the realistic need to hire my friends to give it that flush just isn't true in my case.?.

maybe the fellas who do give their accounts a frequent splash-N-dash do so because when they run their Encap machine of choice over it, they are RUNNING, (a.k.a. scrub-N-run) and not really giving due concern to the carpet.?.

could be. that would explain why i am so slow and why i don't need to "HWE Flush" my accounts.



just thinking out loud. what do you think?



the 1000 sq.ft. per hour Encap'er --- Derek.

We have a couple accounts where the carpet is lifting off the adhesive due poor installation and the vacuum from the wand. They have specified VLM. We have used the Cimex and DS on one area over 36 times without extraction and the carpet is performing well. As a test, we used a portable to extract a section with fresh water and had zero foam in the waste tank.

I think it depends on the soil load more than a residue concern.

I also choose to educate my customers of the need for periodic HWE so they don't think they can just buy a Cimex and replace me. One janitorial company that I used to get a lot of work from did just that. Approaching commercial accounts with the ability to use multiple cleaning systems to provide them with the best carpet care within their budget is working well for us. My competition is usually just trying to sell whatever system they have.

Each job would be different, but you are probably right. If you spend the time to make sure the carpet is very clean when you leave, chances are that you will seldom have to bring in a different system to fix it up. You'll never loose a job because you cleaned better than you had too, but you will loose a job if you try to cut corners. This doesn't matter which system you use. I can see though, in some situations, such as maybe restaurants, if you use encap, I can see the logic in adding extraction to the pie to lessen the soil load. You may have to do this everytime or every couple times depending on the restaurant and only each person as a trained professional can determine this on a case to case basis.

I still feel, to do encapping with extraction is still the ultimate way to clean. But now, you just have to find the people who are willing to pay for that degree of service. Each homeowner or business owner set the budget that we have to work with to maintain his or her building. Now we have to determine how best to meet their needs, but within their budgets.

Rick Thode
rick@releasit.ca

Since vacuuming is the extraction process it also depends on what maintenance is bieng done after after you cimex the floor. if they don't vacuum frequently enough then the soil is going anywhere. But if its being vacuumed frequently then I would think the soil load is staying low enough to not require HWE.

I am mostly a VLMer but I have never been w/o HWE. Right now I am using my 10 year old Ninja and my new Steamin Demon. Several times a week I have to deal with Vomit, Pet accidents and small water damages restoration jobs. You cannot do those w/o flushing action. You either have to do the right thing and walk on those or get equipment to do them correctly.

I am new to the Encaping method. The first job I did I inspected the carpet after I cleaned and was dry. I seperated the pile and looked at the base of the pile all the way down to the backing. No visible dirt. The fibers looked clean and bright. This account probably would not need to be rinsed periodacally.I think if you take each account individually some might and some might not. Also I have HWE capability. I have to disinfect with Microban and flush a carpet this weekend from a clean water flood that may have midew problem. So I think if you have the capability to do both methods VLM or HWE you are one step ahead of those that don't.
Anyway that's my opinion.
BTW I love my new Cimex!!!!

absolutely Joe. the more tools & methods you have the better off you are.

i agree Ray, gotta flush some resi things. i walk from any water damage related issues several times a year...did so as recently as Thursday nite, and that was for a friend. i don't have the know-how or equipment or desire.

good replies.

thanx --- Derek.

This debate has been raging for years. It started out in the early years as a debate between HWE and Padding, and now has evolved to include encap. cleaners. (It's all shampoo.) Nothing changes.

I have noticed, over the years, that it is those who have no HWE capabilities who claim you can shampoo forever without extraction.

The thing that has changed throught-out time is the formulae for the chemicals that do the work.

The older "shampoo" solutions that have been around since the year dot, did not readily release, not were they free rinsing.

A lot of time and effort had to go into the removal of these old style shampoo's.

Whereas the newer style encapsulation products, (I know, I know, you still want to call it shampoo), are not meant to be rinsed away with acid based solutions, but meant to dry onto ( Gawd forgive me ) the carpet fibres.

When they have reached a dry state, the thin film of solution is fractured enough to be easily vacuumed away, along with the soiling to which it is attached.

This is the "RINSE" stage.

But you already know this and still will not accept it, but that's okay, we all have our ideas and misconceptions about different things, if not, how boring this world would be.

I still enjoy reading your posts Marty.

Cheers mate.

I've seen the light, and changed my ways.

Because you are in the defense mode, you naturally make an assumption that I am unaware of the improvement in shampoo formulation. You are wrong in that assumption. Nowhere in my previous comments can you find any negative statements regarding the new products, their ability to release, or their cleaning effectiveness. What you WILL find is a objective, non-alligned, view of what role the encapsulation process plays and what it has to offer the PROFESSIONAL cleaner.

I was shampooing carpets in the early eighties, along with HWE. Long before the boards came about, I was offering commercial carpet cleaning programs and encorporating light shower shampoo into the mix. Having to rinse was a standard fact of life within the commercial cleaning sector in those days simply because the shampoos wouldn't release from the fiber. Todays shampoos ARE much better at that. I have commercial accounts that have NEVER been rinsed. However, having said that, let me tell you of a school system that I maintain, and how encapsulation shampoos work there.

Going on 6 years now, I have several schools that have only been encapsulated. The system, though never intended to be used in this environment, has worked wonderfully. However, this past Christmas I cleaned one of the largest schools within the system and noticed a slight muddy look to the foam forming under my GLS. That made me take a closer look at the carpets and I decided to rinse one room to see how it would look and clean. It was loaded with shampoo. Sure, it wasn't foamy, nor was it hard to rinse, but it was there and after rinsing the carpets I saw a tremendous improvement in it's appearance.

So, all I'm saying is don't blindly follow the chemical manufacturers statements regarding the performance of these "new" chemicals. Test for yourselves and remember there is nothing new under the sun. Moreover, remember that your job as a responsible cleaner is to give the customer what they want, which in most situations is REMOVAL of soil.

Another thing ... take a look at the bag of your vacuum cleaner or cannister and tell me how much soil and crystalized shampoo you actually recover with your post vacuuming. Take a REAL look at this while cleaning residential carpets using encapsulation and HWE side by side. Comparing post vacuuming of encap. cleaned residential carpets to HWE of the same carpet will reveal that the dried soil found in the bottom of your extractor recovery tank will be multiple times greater than the amount of dried shampoo and recovered soils found in your vacuum bag. Don't believe me? All you have to do is empty your waste water into a flat pan, set the pan out in the sun and let the water evaporate. Look at the mud left and compare it to the small amount of fluff postvacuuming will pick up off dried encapsulated carpet fibers. (By the way, in my testing, both the HWE side and the encap. cleaned side were prevacuumed.)

Where's the dirt?

I have not even brought up the potential fiber damage to residential carpets caused by using commercial planetary scrubbers such as the Cimex. However, unless you are completely blind, or brainwashed, you certainly should be open to that potential problem with the use of a Cimex on residential carpets. If the carpet mills are concerned with abrasive damage caused by bonneting and padding carpets, how much more concerned should you be by using floor scrubbing pads and bristle brushes on res. carpet?

Admiralclean, I believe that everyone here realizes that every carpet has different needs. Some receive good maintenance between cleanings, some receive very poor vacuuming, some see light use, some have high oil or grease content, some have very high foot traffic straight from the parking lot, some have pet issues, ect. ect. ect. This means that a professional will have a variety of methods and tools to properly clean the situation at hand or turn away projects that they are not equipped for. This meaning that if your school needs periodic HWE flushing in-between low moisture cleanings you are equipped to do that. And by not having to HWE every cleaning you are able to give the school a more cost effective maintenance program and make more money for yourself. Win/Win.

Encapsulation chemistry IMHO is the very best cleaning chemistry available thanks to Rick Gelinas for bringing encapsulation to the high level it is today. How can we go wrong leaving a soil encapsulating residue when we are done HWEing or Low Moisture cleaning?

I don’t think anyone is in the “defense mode”. This is simply a discussion about periodic HWE flushing in-between low moisture encap cleanings. Are you in the attack mode or here to discuss the subject? I believe, a little of both. Your post above tells me that you are a professional with the tools to take good care of your clients and you have shared some valuable information.


Richard Brooks
Hit The Spot
Exceeding Client Expectations

this thread aint about Encap'ing resi.

it is about the fact that i feel why it takes me longer to Encap than nearly everyone else is that i feel because i might be doing a more thorough Encap job (including the ridiculous thorough pre-vac). and that if true, that is why i never see the need to have my friends do an occasional HWE flush.

the fellas that do splash-N-dash on their accounts are probably true scrub-N-run'ers.

thanx --- Derek.

(sorry, i dislike the type of person that lumps everyone together and thinks he/she knows it all):

or, they honestly see a need for it in their situation and they're not s-N-r'ers.

thanx --- Derek.

Marty is dead right on this one, plus it shows that he is quite capable of producing needlessly long posts.....


Marty, do any of these schools that you clean use carpet tiles. If so it would be interesting to remove one, weigh it, pressure wash it and when dry re-weigh it.

Or perhaps if they ever replace school carpet in Alabana, could you obtain some of that removed carpet for testing purposes.

LOL Tony, you too are right on target about Marty, I almost fell asleep reading it. Also remember, carpet tiles are expensive and Alabama School System just ain't going to spend that kind of money.

This thread seems to demonstrate some of the shortcomings in email. One cannot hear the tone of voice, see the body language, etc. Not to offend any PETAphiles but there are a number of ways to skin a cat, and sometimes it is good to be able employ those varied techniques/methods. Also variety/diversity helps to keep things interesting and helps to propel advancement. Also applying these labels such as "splash 'n' dash" or "scrub 'n' run" are they truly positive things that reinforce the professionalism of our trade? Then again, with the overabudnace of those engaged in this type of work, causing the increased use of fossil fuels, etc. and the environmental repercussions of that activity it can make doing carpets and being a member of this trade seem selfishly offensive. Why should this something as juvenile as this pissing contest be a surprise.

"potential" is a weak & misleading statement don't ya think. anything can POTENTIALLY cause fiber damage when run like a chimp. i mean, yea if you are talking any OP machine, that would be a more suitable word. nothing is more prone to T.B. a carpet in the hands of a noob than an OP we all know that.

like someone recently said on Mike's Forum, he's "seen a CRB tipbloom a carpet, ne'er a Cimex...so much for the wisdom of the mills." so yea use your GLS cause it is "approved", but is it damaging carpets?

so a Cimex cause fiber damage...from others comments, nope i'd reckon.

i can't speak for CRB's cause i aint used one on a job, therefore i'll shut it (for once )

and that said, i still hope to get a CRB someday.

thanx --- Derek.

Noooo ... "potential" is not a statement. It is a W-O-R-D!

And it's meaning is clearly defined in the dictionary. Look it up if you need to.

oh no he didn't.