I was intrigued by Tony's post that about his carpet. Specifically that the warranty identifies the cimex as voiding the warranty. Why? I remember reading once in an article that talked about how some mills forbid bonnets but it mostly had to do with operator not doing the job correctly and making the carpet look bad. Are there other carpets that the Cimex would void the warranty on?

Rick do you ever contact these mills to address their concerns?

Where was Tony's post saying this ??

Can you copy & paste it here for all to see please. ?

Cheers,

Shorty.

I've seen the light, and changed my wicked ways.
www.get.shorty.com.au

There has NEVER been a single warranty claim from any mill relating to a Cimex. NEVER!

We had heard rumors too. So we got proactive and sent a Cimex along with Releasit and FiberPlus pads to Professional Testing Laboratory in Dalton Georgia. Professional Testing is "THE" lab recognized by ALL of the mills as well as the CRI for conducting third party testing. Professional Testing sets the standard as to what is okay or not okay for carpet.

What did PTL's tests with the Cimex confirm?

Professional Testing Laboratory confirmed that a Cimex with Releasit and FiberPlus pads, making 22 PASSES on a commercial cut pile carpet, did not damage the carpet...


CLICK HERE

22 Passes, and the carpet was undamaged.
I think that should be sufficient to lay any silly rumors about the Cimex to rest.








Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

Remember guys, this is on "commercial cut pile" not on residential.

was there soil present in that test Rick???

i've found that the FPP's hold alot of soil even the ones that are well vacuumed!

The testing was conducted with FiberPlus pads, as well as with shampoo brushes, on cut pile commercial grade carpet, since commercial carpet is what the Cimex is primarily being used for. This was not a "cleaning" test, it is a standardized test that Professional Testing employs to determine whether a cleaning machine will damage a carpet under extreme conditions (that's why they made 22 passes). This is PTL's test and they set the parameters. We didn't have a say on how they would conduct their tests. The outcome shows that the Cimex is deemed safe for CUT PILE commercial carpet with FiberPlus Pads and with Shampoo Brushes.

Test with pads...
http://www.cimex-usa.com/brochures/TestResult100742.pdf

Test with brushes...
http://www.cimex-usa.com/brochures/TestResult100744.pdf






Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

If it weren't for silly rumors, this place would quickly become as boring as the old VLM forum.

I'm searching for the next one.

More later.

so in other words it wasn't a real world test!

the carpets i clean ALL have soil in them. for a place like PTL to do a test and not have abrasive soils present is a farce, IMO. thats like saying the less crime goes on in February vs January!!!

Danny, if you're concerned about the pads picking up sand, then use the brushes. The brushes can't pick up any sand.

You want to talk about "real world"? ...

At every single Connections Tradeshow we run the Cimex in our booth on SOILED cut pile carpet for several hours non-stop. In fact we love to leave the machine running on the carpet without holding the handle - it draws people into our booth.

We are normally in the booth for about 10-12 hours over the course of 3 days. And all the while we have the Cimex running with FiberPlus pads, just siting there spinning on the same spot of "soiled" carpet, for 3 afternoons. Crazy?

Well let's be generous and say the machine is not running half of the time that we’re in the booth, let's say it's only running for 5 hours. Would that be fair enough? What the heck, let's cut that number in half again, let's say it's only running for 2.5 hours. Okay I'll really give you all the credit in the world and cut that number in half yet again, let's say the machine is only running for an hour and a quarter. And in all honesty it's running a LOT LONGER than that.

Now just think about what we're doing here. We are intentionally running a Cimex for at least an hour (actually a lot more), over the exact same section of soiled “real world” carpet. And we’re doing it in front of all the movers and shakers in the carpet cleaning industry. Could you honestly picture running ANY agitation machine on a commercial cut pile carpet for an hour or more? That would be totally insane wouldn't it? Well I suppose that I'm insane, because we run the Cimex with FiberPlus pads just like that, in front of the whole world at every Connections event, and there’s never any damage to the carpet whatsoever.







Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

I can vouch for that Rick. I have seen it many times at Connections.

I own two Cimexes and clean oriental rugs with them. Some rugs aren't near as durable as commercial carpet and then machine does not hurt most rugs. May not be how most people use the machine, but it has been my experience.

Kevin Pearson

Here is the link for the prohibitions on Tony's carpet.

http://www.tandus.com/pdf/RotaryProhibitionStatement.pdf

this was from the "Properly Maintained CGD Carpet Will Last......" thread that Derek started. Obviously a trouble maker.


Its interesting to note the the prohition statement is less than a month old. You'd think that the cimex would have proven its worth by now. I also noticed on there site they list specific manufacturers that approved. Do they have a special arrangement with them. also the only approved cleaning chemical listed is their own. I'm guessing its an encap product since the whitaker is an approved machine.

The testing performed at Professional Testing Laboratory was conducted according to industry accepted testing protocols. I've always been under the impression that Tandus makes a superior product. Yet if their product has difficulty holding up to the gentle scrubbing action of a planetary scrubber, one might wonder how it will hold up to ordinary foot traffic. My thought is that it will hold up quite well to both foot traffic as well as a planetary scrubber. I've seen the commercial carpet that they use for the tests at PTL and it does not strike me as being anywhere near the quality level of Tandus Powerbond. Now if a mediocre grade commercial test carpet can hold up to the Cimex, it's hard to imagine that a high quality floor covering made from 6.6 nylon fused to a unique vinyl backing could ever fail.







Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

It is all well and good to say, as many of us know that the cimex or any other rotary machine in the hands of a professional cleaner will not harm carpets, however, when a mill names your machine in it's warranty as a means of voiding the warranty it will only be a matter of time before someone ends up buying a carpet. I have said all along that it will only be a matter of time before it happens. I shutter when I read someone saying they used a red floor pad on their rotary to clean a dirty restaurant, next it will be a black pad who knows, but the mills are protecting their own interests and I am sure they are justified when you see what some cleaners can do a carpet installation. What do we do? ignore the mills warranty, hope the owners do not even know they have a warranty, hope that there is never a problem. We could be like some of the big janitorial firms and park our vacuums all around the building, but only use brooms and dustpans to pick up surface soils. Now let me see I have a few old portables clean the dust off them park them in high visible areas in our contracts and go on cleaning with cimexs and rotary's that's the answer!

Don, if you honestly feel that there is a legitimate reason for concern it would be prudent for you to refrain from using the Cimex on that particular brand of carpet.







Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

thanks for the testing data rick.
i hope you dont mind but im printing a copy of that for my files just in case i ever get questioned about that.

Hey !!! Keep me out of this !! It is NOT my warranty.

It does however remind me of the numerous fabrics with a "dry clean only" label to help protect the manufacturer.

Don't get me wrong I use the cimex, love the cimex and find excuses to use the cimex instead of HWE and got a bigger bed for me and my cimex. Rick your preaching the to the choir. I just notice that there was an actual letter written to cleaners and costumers that prohibited Cimex by name and that made me curious. It seems that my original question and concern that was in my original post somehow got lost. So I'll ask again:

Rick do you ever contact these mills to address their concerns?

If so I'm curious as to what their response is.

AS an aside has anyone, either a customer or the the cleaner, worried about the warranty of the carpet they are cleaning? WHo even knows? I had my house built choose the carpet I liked and I don't remember anyone giving me warranty information. Who thinks of that stuff? I guess it would have to be a pretty high end product.

Rick do you ever contact these mills to address their concerns?

If so I'm curious as to what their response is.

Yes we have contacted a few of the mills. And by and large the response has been positive. In fact one of the largest carpet manufacturers in the world has really shown appreciation for what our system has been able to accomplish for them and they regularly recommend the Cimex/Releasit combo for some of their problematic commercial warranty jobs. On the other hand, Tandus appears to be the only manufacturer that is taking a narrower view toward the Cimex.


AS an aside has anyone, either a customer or the the cleaner, worried about the warranty of the carpet they are cleaning? WHo even knows? I had my house built choose the carpet I liked and I don't remember anyone giving me warranty information. Who thinks of that stuff? I guess it would have to be a pretty high end product.

You bring up a valid point there. An additional thought is that since we have documented PROOF that the Cimex has been recognized as safe for commercial carpet, why would any mill take a negative position toward it, to the point of printing it out of their warranty? Yet, each manufacturer makes their own decisions regarding their warranty.

It is my understanding that Tandus has tested the Cimex running it DRY (no solution) on a carpet for a period of time and they observed distortion. I understand that the dry testing was performed on stock cut pile test carpet (not their own commercial product). And from these test results they've concluded that they don't like the Cimex. Like I said above "each manufacturer makes their own decisions regarding their warranty". And if this is their position I will respect that.

In closing I'll restate what I posted earlier. There has NEVER been a single substantiated warranty claim from any carpet mill relating to a Cimex. That is a fact. And on the flip side of the coin, the Cimex and Releasit has been helping one of the largest mills solve some of their most challenging commercial warranty claims.








Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

We cleaned with Host for several years in the 80's. When a mill so prominently recommends Host, I think there is more going on than meets the eye.

Call the mii, talk to their tech rep. Discuss what you're doin. Provide the test results discussed by Rick. You will usually get a verbal OK. Get the tech reps name, note the date and time of call and subject and results of call. You may not get the outcome you want every time, but most of the time you will, and you have documentation to back you up.

Wayne Miller added a thought provoking response to this subject over on the ICS board...

http://www.i-boards.com/ics/messages.asp?MsgID=850098&ThreadID=86455#850098








Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

I'd like to see that post reproduced....everywhere.

Roland----You can phone the mills all you want but unless you get something in writing from them a verbal response holds no water in court.

Rick----- My response was to the industry in general and not a concern with my operation I will continue to use Cimex, Rotary or any other method we find that does the best job in any particular situation. I am concerned when I read what some people use to clean carpets---One bad apple-----you know the rest of the story. For years a carried a letter with me from Milligan that said HWE was an acceptable means of maintaining their products, I used it many times to show owners of Milligan carpets that they where not bound to clean with the capture method only, without that letter I had no leg to stand on when trying to sell our program to them.
It has to be in writing no matter what!

Don,

Wouldn't it be lovely if everything in life were simply black or white and we could just place each item into it's own neat little box? Unfortunately, in life, things don't always fit into neat little boxes. Such is the case here. For whatever reason Tandus has made up their mind, and that is that. The closest thing to a "letter" that I can provide for you is this...


CLICK HERE







Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com

brilliant response Wayne. he's one smart cookie.

thanx --- Derek.

I have had little interest from my clients in thier carpet warranties - which if you read them carefully you will find they are of little substance or use to the client. On occasions I have recieved questions about using the Cimex relavant to warranty. What I discovered was the true source of warranty questions was MilliCare companies, who were bashing anything that was not the MilliCare System, and also pursuading clients with Milliken carpets to believe thier warranty would be void if they used any other cleaning company that was not MilliCare (or using thier system).

It happens that I know one of Millikens corporate associates, so I relayed this information and asked if it was true (Millicares claims)?, and if I could have the verdict in writing. Two weeks later my answer was that the issue went to the upper ranks at corporate, raised eybrows, and that any such claims by MilliCare were to be stopped immediately and would not be tolerated (for liability issues). However I never did get ditto in writing. To date, I believe this is still the prevelant tool used by Millicare to land clients.

I will mention that Berelieu Carpets hired our company specifically because they knew we did use 'encap'. (BIG THANKS TO EXCELLENT SUPPLY TEAM FOR THE REFERRAL)! Brand new commercial carpet was laid, cleaned by HWE method, then wickback city. Cleaned again and got worse. We cleaned it via Cimex/Releasit and looked great, no call backs. A later discussion with one of thier commercial sales people revealed he had zero knowledge of Cimex and encap method. ??

I think is is important that professionals using any method produce quality results without damaging carpet - no matter what method is used. We are careful to document carpet conditions with photos before, and after jobs. We have paid for a carpet repair or two because we did not want to tinker with a 'who's fault' discussion.

Nevertheless - we keep adequate liability insurance for such things - and is worth every penny, particularly considering the potential for some carpet manufacturer to get up on the wrong side of the bed one day and want to take it out on a hard working carpet cleaner.

I don't post often - maybe cause I post so much in one sit:)

Thanks to all who do post useful information.

Rick said "It is my understanding that Tandus has tested the Cimex running it DRY "

HAHAHAHA...do they run every machine dry? I don't think that even the mighty Vortex would do much good running dry.

Politics! How often have we encountered that in the past. Great example being Host, how many mills recommended them at one time or another, knowing nothing about the actual end results, except it did not harm their product. They cared less about the lack of cleaning or the fact that the Host product could never be totally removed from the carpet, or the dusting problems within the building

Rick, do you have a sample of the carpet before and after the cimex was run over it for 15 hours give or take, and what it looks like under a microscope???

i've made lots of $$$ with my Cimex and encap shampoo, not saying it does damage, but pads and bonnets that pick up and hold abrasive soils have to be abrading the fiber to a certain degree.

if you're so sure of theres no harm to carpet, it might be time to issuue an insurance policy with every case of FPP's sold???

As I said above Danny, if you are concerned about the pads - USE BRUSHES. They won't clean as well. And you'll use more detergent. But you won't have to weary yourself worrying about imagined abrasion.






Rick Gelinas
rick@excellent-supply.com