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Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - TheCleaningDude - 07-27-2013
How often - if ever - do you rotate cleaning methods with commercial clients?
I was working with a group of cleaners yesterday - predominantly HWE (very cool guys) - and they told me that they HWE at least once a year and encap the remainder (quarterly accounts).
Are you doing something similar? Would 'padcapping' be considered an alternate method to encapping in that regard?
Further, how do you decide when HWE would be a preferred method over encapping cgd?
I ask because a couple of months ago I cleaned a terrible cgd. I used the Orbot initially for maybe one office and decided to sub a TM. Didn't make much of a difference.
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - Jamie - 07-27-2013
It's a good question. I'm interested why the TM crew didn't get any better results in this instance? Was it the type of soiling or the limited airflow for recovery or was there wick back or the type of chems they used weren't suitable for the situation or the carpet was just past recovery?
Personally I think it depends how badly soiled the carpets are each time you do the job and how often they vacuum the carpet each week. Maybe it's worth HWE the bad traffic areas once a year instead of the whole lot.
Cheers
Jamie
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - TheCleaningDude - 07-28-2013
The place hadn't been cleaned in about a year. This was a return visit for the crew.
However, the carpet was in fair shape. Not good, not bad.
Here's the thing though. The HWE was fierce! Steam everywhere, lots of suction, the works. These guys are real pros.
But after the HWE the guys wanted to check out the Orbot. So I brought the machine in, laid down some encap and we ran the machine in a small area (already cleaned). This was just so they could check out the machine not a comparison test or anything else. Ran the machine for about five feet. Turned it off, lifted the plate and here is what we saw:
![[Image: 2013-07-26211641_zpsc748ae8a.jpg]](http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/cleaningservicepros/media/2013-07-26211641_zpsc748ae8a.jpg.html)
Again, this was a full fledged cleaning on their part. These guys are true professionals and this is not a slam against them or their method. The point though is does HWE have that much of an effect on CGD? Does cycling methods offer any real benefit if you're still removing a lot of dirt after the extraction?
(07-27-2013, 07:30 PM)Jamie Wrote: It's a good question. I'm interested why the TM crew didn't get any better results in this instance? Was it the type of soiling or the limited airflow for recovery or was there wick back or the type of chems they used weren't suitable for the situation or the carpet was just past recovery?
Personally I think it depends how badly soiled the carpets are each time you do the job and how often they vacuum the carpet each week. Maybe it's worth HWE the bad traffic areas once a year instead of the whole lot.
Cheers
Jamie
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - Lefty724 - 07-29-2013
Been there done that.
I always use VLM on cgd.
I lost an account because I tried to switch methods and I ended up getting a ton of wick backs and a lot of streaks by using hwe. They were super happy with the vlm, and I just "over thought" too much by thinking I had to hwe it. Lesson learned.....Trying to get that account back LOL!
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - Jamie - 07-29-2013
There's a lot of soil on that pad after such a fierce TM HWE.
I am definitely not bagging HWE but it does seam with that much left in the carpet after just 5 feet with the Orbot that Recovery on CGD just isn't that great. You can imagine the wick back possibilities especially on Olefin.
I never understood the issue with recovery on CGD with HWE until I read a piece by Rick explaining the limited airflow issue. Then it all dawned on me. I too only Encap commercial.
Thanks for the info & the pic Cleaning Dude.
Cheers
Jamie
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - DON ELDRED - 07-29-2013
And if I where to extract after your OP cleaning I would get a ton of dirty water
Impossible to remove all soiling no matter which system is used.
Re: RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - Lefty724 - 07-29-2013
(07-29-2013, 08:11 AM)DON ELDRED Wrote: And if I where to extract after your OP cleaning I would get a ton of dirty water
Impossible to remove all soiling no matter which system is used.
Exactly. We can go in circles all day and you will never get all the dirt out.
Just believe in "your system" and run with it....
Sent from my Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - TheCleaningDude - 07-29-2013
Yes, like I emphasized in the post, it's not a method debate. Please understand that.
My whole point is what's the benefit of cycling methods?
(07-29-2013, 08:11 AM)DON ELDRED Wrote: And if I where to extract after your OP cleaning I would get a ton of dirty water
Impossible to remove all soiling no matter which system is used.
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - DON ELDRED - 07-29-2013
Carpets act as a filter and every once in a while it is advisable to empty the filter. HWE is the best method to empty the filter. Once done we can start over with our low moisture maintenance program. How often we need to HWE depends on the traffic and soiling conditions. We have accounts that can go for ever without HWE and others that we need to extract every 6 months.
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - Jamie - 07-29-2013
My point as mentioned was not bagging HWE, my point was the issue of airflow with HWE on CGD and the lessened recovery of water & dirt and that the pic shown was an interesting illustration of it.
I absolutely agree there is a place for each method. It wasnt a "my methods better" comment, to bad it was interpreted as such.
Cheers
Jamie
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - TheCleaningDude - 07-29-2013
In your opinion would you consider padding an alternative to encapping or would this not be enough soil removal?
(07-29-2013, 05:16 PM)DON ELDRED Wrote: Carpets act as a filter and every once in a while it is advisable to empty the filter. HWE is the best method to empty the filter. Once done we can start over with our low moisture maintenance program. How often we need to HWE depends on the traffic and soiling conditions. We have accounts that can go for ever without HWE and others that we need to extract every 6 months.
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - TheCleaningDude - 07-29-2013
I agree that a flush, HWE, etc. is necessary and no matter what you will always pull up more dirt.
But what determines how often you switch things up?
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - encapman - 07-30-2013
(07-29-2013, 08:11 AM)DON ELDRED Wrote: And if I where to extract after your OP cleaning I would get a ton of dirty water
Impossible to remove all soiling no matter which system is used.
Lots of good info in this thread. I think Don nailed it though, in his quote above.
There will always be MORE soil in the carpet. It's not possible to eliminate 100% of the soil. No method under the sun can do that. Like the dog chasing his tail we can go round and round.
![[Image: dog-chasing-tail.jpg]](http://uphillwriting.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/dog-chasing-tail.jpg)
This problem is especially great with CGD. A CGD carpet can trap a ton of soil down at the backing of the carpet. CGD is normally built with densely packed fiber. And that fiber frequently gets compacted from foot traffic. That creates a condition where soil becomes impacted throughout the fiber and especially down at the base of the fiber. No vacuum in the world, and no fore breathing truckmount can recover all the soil that's trapped in the fiber.
This underscores the need to maintain carpet. Keep the soil under control. It's called soil management, and as professionals it's what we bring to the table. We need to be there to help the building management plan for proper care of their carpet so their carpet doesn't get away from them. This is extremely important because it can be incredibly challenging to get the soil load under control after the carpet has slid to the bottom of the hill.
Soil Management Includes...
1. Dry soil management. Good quality, and adequate coverage of entrance mats is important. Also keeping the entry outside the building as clean as possible helps too.
1B. Dry soil management (phase two). Good vacuuming is critical. Vacuum, vacuum, and vacuum some more. They need to have a good program for DAILY vacuuming. 79% of soil in a carpet is dry soil, so the dirt trap (a.k.a. carpet) needs to be emptied before the dry soil has a chance to build up.
2. Carpet maintenance can include many forms of low moisture cleaning. For a CGD carpet encap or OP/Bonnet cleaning are a perfect way to maintain the carpet.
3. Periodically HWE can be introduced to flush the carpet. Perhaps once a year will be a good interval for HWE to flush the carpet. However every carpet is different and soil conditions will vary in every situation. So the commercial carpet professional will need to keep an eye on the carpet and regularly examine the carpet to evaluate when and if HWE will benefit the carpet.
As some of the comments above pointed out, HWE can be a recipe for disaster on a CGD carpet. This is especially the case when the carpet has become trashed and wicking is likely to occur. Yet on the other hand, HWE is a tremendously valuable tool to flush the carpet and reduce the overall soil load if a build up develops. Yet in many cases if there's a good program of effective encap cleaning in place there may be little need for periodic HWE cleanings. But like I said the commercial professional will need to be the judge of what he is seeing so he can implement HWE if he perceives there's a need. And if he does employ HWE, he may still want to do a post-encap cleaning to get wicking under control.
Well I've rambled on for too long so I'll sign off for now
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - DON ELDRED - 07-30-2013
No doubt on trashed carpet a combination of methods works best, and a post surface cleaning can make all the difference in the world.
One must remember that there is a big difference in soiling conditions in in colder weather areas such as the great white north vs. Florida
One of the big conditions we fight with is ice melter residue and it can be a big headache with traffic right off the parking lot onto carpeted entrances.
No low moisture system works on these conditions, and the bulk of our jobs come May and June have these problems.
Conclusion: You need all methods available and selecting the right one for the conditions is the secret.
RE: Cycling Methods In Commercial Settings.... - encapman - 07-30-2013
(07-30-2013, 03:55 PM)DON ELDRED Wrote: Conclusion: You need all methods available and selecting the right one for the conditions is the secret.
Once again I agree with Don. These methods that we use are simply the tools in our toolbox. You can't build a house with just a hammer alone. Likewise, as professional cleaners we need to choose the right tool for the job as the situation merits. Encap is a mighty handy tool, and it can handle a lot of what we run into. But encap shouldn't be the ONLY tool in a professional carpet cleaner's toolbox.