Dwell time

[TheCleaningDude]

Sorry, George.

Was referring to this post:

http://forum.excellent-supply.com/thread...ml#pid3307

[george8585]

George, what are your thoughts on my comments regarding pre-vac and pre-scrub being the great equalizer between HWE and VLM?

Would like to hear your perspective as a HWE guy.

I know I can't get the same results wtih VLM that I get with my TM. No matter what I do. Using 400 PSI and 200 degree temp. with a 360i gets fantastic results. But sometimes even with all that it can be difficult. Using the right prespray and rinse is very important, to prevent resoiling and wicking.
I often wonder when I'm doing a nasty carpet, how do the VLM guys get this clean. It seems impossible to me. Carpet that is old worn not cleaned in 5- 10 years. How do they do it? How long would it take?
Pre-vac and pre-scrub can be a great equalizer on residential carpet between HWE and VLM for 75% of the jobs, but what about the other 25% of the time.

Commercial is different I think VLM is great for that 90% of the time, but how about the 10%. I read about guys using these crazy mixtures for restaurants and wonder how bad of a odor they left from those strong mixtures. Can't even imagine how many pads it would take to do a greasy restaurant.

I think both systems have their place, but if you only have one, having a good Truckmount and knowing how to use it, is the way to go.

That is just my opinon, many will disagree. I'm still learning about VLM, next year my opinion may be different.

---

George,

Do you pre-vacuum when you HWE? Agitate with a 175?

If you do, surely that adds time to the job. I think if a HWE cleaner added those two steps - and maybe even a post bonnet dry or rake - it would take almost or just as long as VLM?

That's the great thing about HWE though. You can cut so many steps and still have the carpet looking clean.

You absolutely - imo - cannot cut corners with VLM. Pre-vac is a must, dwell is a must, etc.

For those that say customers want you in and out as soon as possible - not sure if I agree entirely with this. A lot of times customers will tell me something like, "oh the other guy was gone in an hour and I was really upset with how much I paid just to have him rush." That's not always the case of course, but I hear it regularly.

People want to know that they got their moneys worth, and time spent is one easy way to measure it.

Yes, a helper is great. Especially for two story homes. If there is one single Achilles heel that we as VLM'ers face, it's stairs. Dragging stuff up and down again - not to mention the cleaning of steps - is a time killer.

I can do 2 - 3 jobs a day with reasonable comfort. Anything above that would need to include some apartments, single story homes, etc.

I ask the customer to vacuum, they usually do a bad job, but it's not as important with HWE. I have a devastater filter it holds a lot without any vacuum loss. VLM the pre-vac has to be perfect, so even if the customer did pre- vac you still need to when you get there. It's time consumming.
I use a 360i for residential and RX-20 for commercial, if it needs it. Most of the time I use a wand.
If your in and out that's not good either. I hear that about Stanley Steemer. What I'm saying is, they don't want you there any longer neccessary. Every customer is different, but they want a good job done in a reasonable amount of time. I've had some customers think it was going to take me all day to do a job that only takes a few hours. People absolutely want to think they got their moneys worth. There have been times when I was getting done to fast, so I slowed down so the customer didn't think I did it to quick. If they think you did it to quick, they will look over your work trying to find something wrong.
Post vacuuming is so important in VLM, but takes up more time. Your all finished now you got to go back and do another thorough vacuum, That really makes the job, but it's just more time on the job.

[BGCD]

George my thoughts are pre vac always. I think its something the customer expects. If it doesn't really need it go fast. Use a Duplex and put in the encap of your choice. That's the pre spray and pre scrub in one step. Get a great lightweight wand. To groom/trim out a room. I don't see how anything could be better or faster.
On the commercial end I don't see me ever not encaping all commercial jobs.


I agree sometimes I have to slow down on easy jobs. I think people don't want you out to fast. Especially if you are solo.

George also Google 6 Months Later on Dining Room Carpet. That will show you that you don't need crazy mixtures to achieve great results on greasy restaurant carpets. All Joel use was a Green Encap and Fiber Plus pads and no dwell time.

[george8585]

George my thoughts are pre vac always. I think its something the customer expects. If it doesn't really need it go fast. Use a Duplex and put in the encap of your choice. That's the pre spray and pre scrub in one step. Get a great lightweight wand. To groom/trim out a room. I don't see how anything could be better or faster.
On the commercial end I don't see me ever not encaping all commercial jobs.


I agree sometimes I have to slow down on easy jobs. I think people don't want you out to fast. Especially if you are solo.

George also Google 6 Months Later on Dining Room Carpet. That will show you that you don't need crazy mixtures to achieve great results on greasy restaurant carpets. All Joel use was a Green Encap and Fiber Plus pads and no dwell time.

I saw that 6 months later, your talking about. That guy Joel, is very good, knows his profession. Loves the Trinity. But, that carpet was not that bad. I'm just saying some guys use crazy mixtures, just wondering how bad the odor would be from it? Like I said I'm a beginner with VLM, I got a lot to learn.

[Hoss]

A fully loaded Sprayborg with 40 lb weights, 3 gallons of solution, and a saturated bonnet is about 175 lbs. When I purchased my Sprayborg, the advertisement said the Orbot was a 'baby weight' of 82 lbs. I thought I was pretty weak getting it on and off the van and up and down stairs. But, that wasn't the case. Without weights or solution, Sprayborg is 102 lbs. So I now use a back belt going up and down stairs and add weights (if needed) and solution on the floor where the work is being done.

But, the ability to vary the weight from 82 to 175 lbs creates a whole range of deep cleaning opportunities - from plush cut residential and looped commercial to wood to ceramic tile, marble and concrete all with one machine. It does take time and steps - sometimes requiring HWE with the Demon - to achieve the quality results that I want to see with carpeting. But, every customer I have had becomes a reference and I am committed to quality. There is a huge contrast between the quality of a carpet restoration using the proper steps of encapsulation outlined in this thread and what many people have come to expect from TM.

[george8585]

A fully loaded Sprayborg with 40 lb weights, 3 gallons of solution, and a saturated bonnet is about 175 lbs. When I purchased my Sprayborg, the advertisement said the Orbot was a 'baby weight' of 82 lbs. I thought I was pretty weak getting it on and off the van and up and down stairs. But, that wasn't the case. Without weights or solution, Sprayborg is 102 lbs. So I now use a back belt going up and down stairs and add weights (if needed) and solution on the floor where the work is being done.

But, the ability to vary the weight from 82 to 175 lbs creates a whole range of deep cleaning opportunities - from plush cut residential and looped commercial to wood to ceramic tile, marble and concrete all with one machine. It does take time and steps - sometimes requiring HWE with the Demon - to achieve the quality results that I want to see with carpeting. But, every customer I have had becomes a reference and I am committed to quality. There is a huge contrast between the quality of a carpet restoration using the proper steps of encapsulation outlined in this thread and what many people have come to expect from TM.

I'm only 158 pounds, and I'm old, but I lift the Orbot in my van, don't use a ramp. I don't have the weights on it, no solution, and I took the sprayer off. Don't use that for residential. Without the sprayer on it's easier to get a hold of. Goes up and down steps easily, nice big wheels. I believe it weighs 82 pounds without the accessories.
That's why I bought it, instead of the Trinity. Trinity 110 pounds, no lifting that into the van. Try getting that up and down steps, alone. I want to get a Trinity for commercial jobs.

[Gkleen]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

[george8585]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

Thank You
I was hoping to hear from someone who has used both. I'm going to take your advice.
Just put the sprayborg on when doing commercial. I thought Trinity would clean just a little better than the Orbot, and do it faster. I guess I'm wrong.

[BGCD]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

GKleen how would you rate an Orbot on residential without the sprayborg? And what kind of pads do you use for residential?

[Gkleen]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

GKleen how would you rate an Orbot on residential without the sprayborg? And what kind of pads do you use for residential?

It is excellent. I use the Orbot 100% of the time on residential. I rarely use the Sprayborg in a residence, but pre-spray instead. I use micro fibers and SuperZorbs.

[BGCD]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

GKleen how would you rate an Orbot on residential without the sprayborg? And what kind of pads do you use for residential?

It is excellent. I use the Orbot 100% of the time on residential. I rarely use the Sprayborg in a residence, but pre-spray instead. I use micro fibers and SuperZorbs.

Now that's what I wanted to hear. So I guess you pre spray. Run the micro if its bad. And then run the Super to finish off? And maybe the Super only if its not bad?

[Gkleen]

Keep your money George and use the Orbot with Sprayborg on commercial. It cleans just as fast as the CM. I have had both. The microfiber with strips under the Orbot is a fantastic combo on commercial.
Unless you just have the itch to spend some money, it's really not necessary.

GKleen how would you rate an Orbot on residential without the sprayborg? And what kind of pads do you use for residential?

It is excellent. I use the Orbot 100% of the time on residential. I rarely use the Sprayborg in a residence, but pre-spray instead. I use micro fibers and SuperZorbs.

Now that's what I wanted to hear. So I guess you pre spray. Run the micro if its bad. And then run the Super to finish off? And maybe the Super only if its not bad?

Exactly.