For All The Janitors....

[TheCleaningDude]

I've gotten a couple of more janitorial accounts. Along with it the carpet cleaning, etc. but I bill those separately.

Still new at janitorial though and I only have a handful of customers - small potatoes really. I service them all myself at the moment, but if it gets big enough I would like to bring someone on.

I bid these with the mindset of having another person doing the work. This is the formula I use, does it make sense?

Est. Job Time = X Hours

Employee Pay = Y $ Per Hour (incl. associated fees, etc.)

Cost of product used = Z $ Per Job

XYZ X 30% - 40% = X1 $ Add On Per Labor Hour

XYZ + X1 = Billable labor time
___________

So, say you pay someone $10.00 an hour. Add to it FICA, Comp, etc. and that brings it to $11.50 an hour. Add to it $.50 an hour for product used.

Total $12.00 an hour of labor time (using rounded numbers to keep it simple).

$12.00 X 40% = $4.80

Billable labor time = $16.80

___________

Is this the right approach?

Also, where I am still having trouble is estimating cleaning time. Anyone know of a guide or rule of thumb for estimating time?

Thanks

[Derek]

Also, where I am still having trouble is estimating cleaning time. Anyone know of a guide or rule of thumb for estimating time?

Thanks

congrats on the new finds!!

idk about the billing formula's since we never had employees, but as far as how long jobs can take, well i can't really help you there either sorry lol. all i do know is don't under-quote a job. go a little high is my recommendation. unless you really need the $ of course

[JuddBowers]

Formulas are the easiest part of janitorial work. Finding employees willing to do a good job beyond 2 weeks is next to impossible.

I pay by the job, not the hour. The office is either clean or its not. Really that simple to me. However, Americans are so programmed to $ per hour, that they somehow start to think that by taking a 3 hour job, skip a few things, throw in some short cuts, leave in 2 hours, that they've somehow made more $ per hour, even though their paycheck is exactly the same, until I let them go and their paycheck is $0.00.

Janitorial is a tough business. Thats why I'm on the way out and in to carpet cleaning.

[TheCleaningDude]

Yes, per job is ideal.

Still, you need to be able to estimate how long it would take though?

Formulas are the easiest part of janitorial work. Finding employees willing to do a good job beyond 2 weeks is next to impossible.

I pay by the job, not the hour. The office is either clean or its not. Really that simple to me. However, Americans are so programmed to $ per hour, that they somehow start to think that by taking a 3 hour job, skip a few things, throw in some short cuts, leave in 2 hours, that they've somehow made more $ per hour, even though their paycheck is exactly the same, until I let them go and their paycheck is $0.00.

Janitorial is a tough business. Thats why I'm on the way out and in to carpet cleaning.

[NJP]

Go to your janitorial store and get the pricing book for estimates. It breaks it down for you. It will tell you how long it should take to to clean a fixture(example, sink ,toilet stalls etc.) depending on your location your price will vary. I've done this for many years. Also the mom and pops out there will under cut you. They just want a small job to give them spending money and keep them active. I've had this problem in the past. LOL Good luck

[Kevin K]

JMO, but I think your rate is at least a little low for janitorial. That pricing might be OK at paying $8.00 per hour; I would be more comfortable if you bid based on $19.00-20.00 per billable hour if you're paying out $10.00 per hour. You might lose bids to the large players in town, but you should be able to get some medium sized offices that care about quality. There are still a FEW out there!

But I haven't been in janitorial for almost half my lifetime now...just what I've heard from some networking partners that are pretty successful.

Back when I started in 1980, you could get some pretty good sized janitorial accounts at $35.00-$50.00 per billable hour. The last medical office I bid on about 10 years ago, my price was undercut by half! The doctors said they knew it wouldn't work, but they had to TRY the other co. The next year, they called me and wanted us back. But by then, we were CC only, and referred them to someone else.

[JuddBowers]

Yes, per job is ideal.

Still, you need to be able to estimate how long it would take though?

True. I estimate 1 hour for every 5000 sq.ft. That's an incredibly loose estimate though. I've mostly learned through trial and error. (with a larger portion of error )

[encapman]

JMO, but I think your rate is at least a little low for janitorial. That pricing might be OK at paying $8.00 per hour; I would be more comfortable if you bid based on $19.00-20.00 per billable hour if you're paying out $10.00 per hour. You might lose bids to the large players in town, but you should be able to get some medium sized offices that care about quality. There are still a FEW out there!

But I haven't been in janitorial for almost half my lifetime now...just what I've heard from some networking partners that are pretty successful.

Back when I started in 1980, you could get some pretty good sized janitorial accounts at $35.00-$50.00 per billable hour. The last medical office I bid on about 10 years ago, my price was undercut by half! The doctors said they knew it wouldn't work, but they had to TRY the other co. The next year, they called me and wanted us back. But by then, we were CC only, and referred them to someone else.

I agree with Kevin. At least $20 per hour will be necessary to be even remotely profitable. Carpet cleaners typically average a gross return of $100 per hour or more. Does that sound high? It isn't. After factoring all of the legitimate business expenses into the equation that is what's required to make a profit and live to see another day. If we're in business but not making a profit - then we have a problem. We might as well go and take a 40 a week job rather than experiencing the hassle of being in business. I would recommend finding a way to rethink the cost/profit ratio.

Here is a message board that may be helpful to ask this question to since there are more people in the maintenance field on that forum... http://forums.cmmonline.com/forums/1-community

Wishing you success!

[TheCleaningDude]

Yes, you're right.

I used the numbers to keep the math simple.

The new accounts is at $19.60 per hour billable. The two other accounts are at $24.00 and $27.00 per billable hour.

Assuming I bid the work correctly of course....

JMO, but I think your rate is at least a little low for janitorial. That pricing might be OK at paying $8.00 per hour; I would be more comfortable if you bid based on $19.00-20.00 per billable hour if you're paying out $10.00 per hour. You might lose bids to the large players in town, but you should be able to get some medium sized offices that care about quality. There are still a FEW out there!

But I haven't been in janitorial for almost half my lifetime now...just what I've heard from some networking partners that are pretty successful.

Back when I started in 1980, you could get some pretty good sized janitorial accounts at $35.00-$50.00 per billable hour. The last medical office I bid on about 10 years ago, my price was undercut by half! The doctors said they knew it wouldn't work, but they had to TRY the other co. The next year, they called me and wanted us back. But by then, we were CC only, and referred them to someone else.

---

Thank you, sir!

JMO, but I think your rate is at least a little low for janitorial. That pricing might be OK at paying $8.00 per hour; I would be more comfortable if you bid based on $19.00-20.00 per billable hour if you're paying out $10.00 per hour. You might lose bids to the large players in town, but you should be able to get some medium sized offices that care about quality. There are still a FEW out there!

But I haven't been in janitorial for almost half my lifetime now...just what I've heard from some networking partners that are pretty successful.

Back when I started in 1980, you could get some pretty good sized janitorial accounts at $35.00-$50.00 per billable hour. The last medical office I bid on about 10 years ago, my price was undercut by half! The doctors said they knew it wouldn't work, but they had to TRY the other co. The next year, they called me and wanted us back. But by then, we were CC only, and referred them to someone else.

I agree with Kevin. At least $20 per hour will be necessary to be even remotely profitable. Carpet cleaners typically average a gross return of $100 per hour or more. Does that sound high? It isn't. After factoring all of the legitimate business expenses into the equation that is what's required to make a profit and live to see another day. If we're in business but not making a profit - then we have a problem. We might as well go and take a 40 a week job rather than experiencing the hassle of being in business. I would recommend finding a way to rethink the cost/profit ratio.

Here is a message board that may be helpful to ask this question to since there are more people in the maintenance field on that forum... http://forums.cmmonline.com/forums/1-community

Wishing you success!

[David Edwards]

I would hope you're giving the client a per-month rate rather than a per-hour rate. No client really needs to know you're per-hour rate or how long you spend on the cleaning. They need only to know how much they'll pay each month and that their building is clean as per specs.

Typically, cleaning rates can range from 2,500 to 3,500 sq.ft./hour depending on soil load, the cleaning tech, methods and equipment. It also depends on things like how much of the floor coverings are carpet vs. hard surface, how much interior glass is to be cleaned each visit, etc.

Your account rated at $24/hr is (in my opinion) the very lowest you should shoot for. People around me (especially national franchises) are averaging $18 to $22.50 per hour. My minimum is $27/hr but I always start my bid at no less than $30/hr. It's my humble opinion that if a business isn't willing to invest what I'm worth into their building and company image then they probably aren't someone I want to invest my time in. Otherwise, I'd work my tail off getting their place in better shape than they've probably ever seen it, then next time someone drops in with a lower price I'll be out the door. Not good for my projections, ya know?

Whatever your per hour rate comes out to, multiply that by the number of projected number of hours per week, then multiply that by 52 (52 weeks) then divide that by 12 (12 months). This gives you the monthly amount for that account.

For example, one of my accounts is just under 5,000 sq.ft and is cleaned only once per week. I initially projected 4 hours per week (lots of sand, dirt and construction going on all around the building, 90% of the building is hard surface flooring so there's a lot of mopping, and four offices have glass walls across the front of them. Plus, I do things a little different than any of my competitors.

Anyway, I bid it at $36/hr. So 36 x 4 (4 hours per week)= 144. That times 52 = 7,488. That divided by 12 = $624 per month. Each and every month no matter how many days are in that month, no matter what holidays are in that month. Like clockwork.

(By the way, I now spend about 3 hours per visit at that account and picked up 3 more of their buildings, although all three are smaller than this one. And it's a high profile business around here, so there are people from competitors stopping in regularly to offer estimates and drop off cards - I often see them laying in the trash cans. So even though I bid it high at $36/hr, I'm actually averaging now about $48/hr, and the client doesn't care anything about getting cheaper estimates. So, the point of this is: don't cut yourself short, especially if you're doing the work yourself. A good client worth having will pay you what you're worth to them even if it's more than what your competitors are worth.)

[TheCleaningDude]

Yes, I bill monthly.

Great feedback and post!

Thanks!

[David-Hebert]

I bid at $50 per man hour, yes I know it is way higher then most, but if they want my service they will pay for it. Since in most cases they have tried everyone else and the service sucks it is an easier sell. Going through the walk around, I know where to look to find everything everyone else misses or just leaves.

When I say I bid out a $50 a hour that is at my pace which usually breaks down to $40 or a little less for normal folk. I pay by the job also, if I get paid by the job so do they.
The most important thing I learned about doing janitorial is systems, I go in and clean the building for the first several weeks to get the building flow down and laminate a step by step procedure for each building, it is like connect the dots. I let staff know you cannot short cut my short cuts or it is a short circuit and you will be out of a job.
We only do select building in order to get the carpet and floors

[TheCleaningDude]

Thanks for the info.

I agree, having all the add ons makes a big difference.

I bid at $50 per man hour, yes I know it is way higher then most, but if they want my service they will pay for it. Since in most cases they have tried everyone else and the service sucks it is an easier sell. Going through the walk around, I know where to look to find everything everyone else misses or just leaves.

When I say I bid out a $50 a hour that is at my pace which usually breaks down to $40 or a little less for normal folk. I pay by the job also, if I get paid by the job so do they.
The most important thing I learned about doing janitorial is systems, I go in and clean the building for the first several weeks to get the building flow down and laminate a step by step procedure for each building, it is like connect the dots. I let staff know you cannot short cut my short cuts or it is a short circuit and you will be out of a job.
We only do select building in order to get the carpet and floors

[David Edwards]

If I understand Dave's post correctly, he's using the same basic premise that I have. That being that production rates matter.

For instance, I don't base any of my numbers off of my competition since my own business (costs/overhead/desired profits, etc.) is not the same as their business. I do, however, often use their production rates or industry standard production rates when bidding.

For instance, suppose you have your hourly rate worked out and you know, generally, how long any other company near you (or their employees) would be projected to spend on that account. Suppose again that the projected time is 3.5 hours per service and that your rate is $27/hr. That would bring the per-visit revenue to $94.50.

That's already a decent revenue, especially if you do the work yourself. But then suppose you cut your cleaning time (without sacrificing quality!!) to 2.5 hours per visit. Now your rate has gone to $37.80/hr.

Every time you start a building, the first few times you clean it will take longer because not are you catching up all the junk-work the company before you did, but you're also working out the flow of the building and the most efficient way to move through it. Add to that good equipment (backpack vacs and microfiber flat mops are great tools for janitorial) and little things like great chemicals and 50-foot vacuum cords rather than 30-foot cords (it makes a difference!) and you'll start to dramatically cut your time. I have a phone with Beats Audio and lots of favorite music, along with Bose headphones - this also helps!

But make no mistake, cutting your time without sacrificing quality is more than good equipment/chemicals and learning the flow of the building. When I go into one of my buildings, I work my tail off to keep my rates up. I'm not moving slow or piddling around like an employee would - I'm there on a mission, you know?

Also, companies around here (and, really, mostly throughout the industry) have it written into the scope that high and low dusting are done (usually) quarterly or semi-annually. Part of the reason I've been able to command prices higher than my competitors is that my clients know that they'll never look at a cob web for 45 days, just waiting on the next scheduled high or low dusting. And they won't see dust collecting on/around air vents until the next scheduled high dusting. I've told them it's done as needed - that if we begin to see dust/cob webs in those areas, we don't wait until the end of the quarter - we get it right then.

This is very appealing to them and it's super easy for me because I've got the buildings broken down into zones. Each visit, I check a zone for high/low dusting needs while doing my regular routine. It takes less than a minute (quite literally) to high/low dust a typical office with a brush attachment on my backpack vac or a telescopic duster while doing the normal routine (without making extra trips to the area - very important).

As a thought, I was talking with a client last week and asked how everything looked (as I often do.) She said everything was great, thought for a moment as she scanned the corners of her office and the overhead air vents, and said, "yeah, everything looks great. I haven't noticed any cob webs or anything." So I asked her when was the last time she saw a cobweb anywhere in the building. She laughed and said, "that's easy. Before you started!"

The point of all this is this: give a great service and you'll get great prices even when others are out there stabbing each other in the back and cutting their own throats with low-ball prices. Occasionally ask questions that will make your client consider the great service they're getting from you and you'll never worry about visits from the sales force of competitors. And always keep in mind that giving a consistently better service than your competitors is easy and actually takes less time if you zone your buildings, spreading the workload out on a rotational basis.

Do this and you'll have your dot-connected systems that Dave spoke of and be getting a consistently higher per-hour rate like he is. It's so freaking easy that it's pathetic that your competitors don't do it - and they won't.

Also, as Dave mentioned, having the janitorial leads to carpet, tile, windows or whatever else you want to do there. It's also a great way to market residential services since, after a time, your client will let you leave brochures/flyers in breakrooms or in the lobbies.

[TheCleaningDude]

That's a dang good post, thank you!

Quick question:

You mentioned flat microfiber mops for speed mopping. I just happened to order some for this very reason.

What's your process when using these mops?

Thanks again!

If I understand Dave's post correctly, he's using the same basic premise that I have. That being that production rates matter.

For instance, I don't base any of my numbers off of my competition since my own business (costs/overhead/desired profits, etc.) is not the same as their business. I do, however, often use their production rates or industry standard production rates when bidding.

For instance, suppose you have your hourly rate worked out and you know, generally, how long any other company near you (or their employees) would be projected to spend on that account. Suppose again that the projected time is 3.5 hours per service and that your rate is $27/hr. That would bring the per-visit revenue to $94.50.

That's already a decent revenue, especially if you do the work yourself. But then suppose you cut your cleaning time (without sacrificing quality!!) to 2.5 hours per visit. Now your rate has gone to $37.80/hr.

Every time you start a building, the first few times you clean it will take longer because not are you catching up all the junk-work the company before you did, but you're also working out the flow of the building and the most efficient way to move through it. Add to that good equipment (backpack vacs and microfiber flat mops are great tools for janitorial) and little things like great chemicals and 50-foot vacuum cords rather than 30-foot cords (it makes a difference!) and you'll start to dramatically cut your time. I have a phone with Beats Audio and lots of favorite music, along with Bose headphones - this also helps!

But make no mistake, cutting your time without sacrificing quality is more than good equipment/chemicals and learning the flow of the building. When I go into one of my buildings, I work my tail off to keep my rates up. I'm not moving slow or piddling around like an employee would - I'm there on a mission, you know?

Also, companies around here (and, really, mostly throughout the industry) have it written into the scope that high and low dusting are done (usually) quarterly or semi-annually. Part of the reason I've been able to command prices higher than my competitors is that my clients know that they'll never look at a cob web for 45 days, just waiting on the next scheduled high or low dusting. And they won't see dust collecting on/around air vents until the next scheduled high dusting. I've told them it's done as needed - that if we begin to see dust/cob webs in those areas, we don't wait until the end of the quarter - we get it right then.

This is very appealing to them and it's super easy for me because I've got the buildings broken down into zones. Each visit, I check a zone for high/low dusting needs while doing my regular routine. It takes less than a minute (quite literally) to high/low dust a typical office with a brush attachment on my backpack vac or a telescopic duster while doing the normal routine (without making extra trips to the area - very important).

As a thought, I was talking with a client last week and asked how everything looked (as I often do.) She said everything was great, thought for a moment as she scanned the corners of her office and the overhead air vents, and said, "yeah, everything looks great. I haven't noticed any cob webs or anything." So I asked her when was the last time she saw a cobweb anywhere in the building. She laughed and said, "that's easy. Before you started!"

The point of all this is this: give a great service and you'll get great prices even when others are out there stabbing each other in the back and cutting their own throats with low-ball prices. Occasionally ask questions that will make your client consider the great service they're getting from you and you'll never worry about visits from the sales force of competitors. And always keep in mind that giving a consistently better service than your competitors is easy and actually takes less time if you zone your buildings, spreading the workload out on a rotational basis.

Do this and you'll have your dot-connected systems that Dave spoke of and be getting a consistently higher per-hour rate like he is. It's so freaking easy that it's pathetic that your competitors don't do it - and they won't.

Also, as Dave mentioned, having the janitorial leads to carpet, tile, windows or whatever else you want to do there. It's also a great way to market residential services since, after a time, your client will let you leave brochures/flyers in breakrooms or in the lobbies.